Arrangement of the Lylat System

[Andross]

Hey everyone!

This thread is to talk about the arrangement of the Lylat system. Do you think that Solar is a star? is Titania a freezing wastland, or a boiling desert? tell me what you think.

Please list your thoughts and the reasons behind them, this is just about all speculation since in reality a system couldn't survive like it is displayed in Lylat Wars. So no nastiness, and no saying that you know exactly how it should go because of whatever. Discuss why you think they belong in the places of your arrangement, disagree (politely) if you can think of a credible reason why they shouldn't. Diagrams or pictures are great if you have them.

This is my arrangement:

• 
  [*]0. Lylat and or Solar. Here we go, the centre of the system. According to the Japanese version of the manual (And Blink), the star that the system orbits around is Lylat. However, we don't (or at least I don't) know if the Japanese call Solar something else, maybe Solar is the English version of Lylat. Maybe Solar is a planet. Or maybe both are stars. Does anyone remember the title screen of Starfox 2? it clearly shows a big bright star right next to another, smaller, but still brighter than the others in the background. this is currently my preferred option.
  
  
• 1. Venom. I'm not particularly happy with this one, but I read on wikipedia that Venom was the first planet & until I hear otherwise, I will treat it as fact.
  
  
• 1b. McBeth. no particular reason, just thought that since it's always portrayed as close to Venom that it would make a cool moon for Venom.
  
  
• 2. Papetoon. Why? Papetoon is hot. it's a direct rip off of Tatooine which was a scorching desert planet under 2 suns. Here, where 1 of our 2 stars is much smaller the planet has to be close in. unless it is in a different system entirely. but there is as of yet no proof that the Lylatians can reach other systems.
  
  
• 3. Katina. purely because it is shown in a direct line between Corneria and the other planets... otherwise I'm not really happy putting it there.
  
  
• 4. Corneria. Need I say more?
  
  
• 5. Aquas. The planet is a water planet, so it can't be too far out without turning into ice. Further more the life rich planet would need as much warmth as possible to keep its waters warm enough to support life.
  
  
• 6. Zoness. The water vs ice issue again.
  
  
• 7. Fortuna. NOT FICHINA! The Fortuna in LW is the Fichina of Assault. it is admitted that a mistake was made, Fichina is covered in snow and the planet in LW is too, plus the music is the same, ergo Fortuna in LW is Fichina. So to start again, Fortuna is a jungle would, but because it is now so far away from the sun, I'm saying that it gets artificial warmth from Sector-X to keep its tropical climate.
  
  
• 8. Titania. Now this is a pet of mine. who says that Titania is actually hot? we assume that because it's a desert that it's automatic hot. but take Mars for example. Pure desert, everywhere on the planet, but you'd freeze to death if you took a step out of your space craft unprotected. plus in the 93 comic, (which I know isn't canon) it states that Titania is like a world wide freezer.
  
  
• 9. Fichina. Cold, remote, and the real location of StarWolf's skirmish with StarFox. what's more to say?
  
  
• ?. Sauria. To be quite honest, no bloody idea. it states that it's "on the edge of the Lylat System." but the temperate climate and the in-game views suggest that it's much closer to the sun.:confused1
  
  
• Sector-Z, Sector-Y and Meteo. Sector-Z, near either Zoness or Venom. not fussed about which 1. Sector-Y and Meteo; again just because it's cool, I imagined Meteo as being an asteroid belt that encircled Corneria completely. The only gap being through Sector-Y which would then make sense as to why Corneria's and Andross' Forces clashed there. Sargasso would then be in the edge of the asteroid belt, near Sector-Y.

Well tell me what you think. I know that everybody will have things they don't like, but hopefully we can have a good debate into what goes where and knock the ever changing canon of the Starfox series into some sort of reasonable shape. at least until the next game comes along and mucks it all up again...

Here I come you evil space hag!

 

[Falco314]

"?. Sauria. To be quite honest, no bloody idea. it states that it's "on the edge of the Lylat System." but the temperate climate and the in-game views suggest that it's much closer to the sun."

lol

 

[Scourge of Ages]

Maybe Sauria oribits an invisible gas giant that itself orbits Lylat? That might be able to provide it with the heat it needs to stay tropical.
Sort of like Yavin IV from Star Wars.

Or maybe the atmosphere is thick enough to amplify a trap whatever heat arrives from Lylat?

I don't know...

 

[Andross]

Maybe Sauria oribits an invisible gas giant that itself orbits Lylat? That might be able to provide it with the heat it needs to stay tropical.
Sort of like Yavin IV from Star Wars.

Or maybe the atmosphere is thick enough to amplify a trap whatever heat arrives from Lylat?

I don't know...

Yeah, maybe. Or maybe The Lylat "System" is actually a small group of stars that are close together, a star cluster if you will, rather than a star system. That would explain some of the places in the SF Command endings too, like Kew. But then, I'm not sure how canonical some of those endings are...

They're on me! I'm getting careless!

 

[Fox's_Feather]

http://undyingnephalim.deviantart.com/art/Lylat-System-Theory-revised-97047817?offset=25#comments

I think that this map is kind of reliable.
The author made a deep analysis of everything said and showed in the different games.
At first, studying the planets temperatures given by the SF64 Player's Guide, I thought that MacBeth and Zoness / Fortuna and Aquas should have been switched, but the video he gives in the explanation of his pic is kinda relevant... I'll let you discover by yourself.

Personally, I tend to trust this map.

 

[Star Yoshi]

In Adventures, a sun can be seen off in the distance of the map that shows the planet and the 4 worlds that are separated from it.

My guess is this: Lylat is that sun, Solar is a sun-esque Planet. Therefore, Lylat is likely far behind Venom, with Papetoon somewhere near the region of space in between the two, and Sauria on the far opposite side of the sun, out of the reach of normal travel/trade routes.

 

[Andross]

http://undyingnephalim.deviantart.com/art/Lylat-System-Theory-revised-97047817?offset=25#comments

I think that this map is kind of reliable.
The author made a deep analysis of everything said and showed in the different games.
At first, studying the planets temperatures given by the SF64 Player's Guide, I thought that MacBeth and Zoness / Fortuna and Aquas should have been switched, but the video he gives in the explanation of his pic is kinda relevant... I'll let you discover by yourself.

Personally, I tend to trust this map.

I had indeed actually seen that map, and while I found that some things were quite informative and well thought out, some things were baseless--like the sectors around Solar--several of the planets that he named as been seen from planets could just as easily been other planets. Plus facts like Sauria just didn't make sense, I've listened to all the rubbish that Peppy spouts in starfox adventures, and nowhere does it say that the Krazoa made the planet, just that they made the spell stones to keep the planet from falling apart. the other thing is that if sauria and Corneria really orbited on the opposite sides of Lylat, the other planets would have colonised it long ago because it would have passed right past Katina several million times.

Plus, if you actually try to get his orbit chart into the same configuration as it is in Lylat Wars it would just plain not work...

however full credit must be given--it was his diagram that first led me to put serious thought into the layout of the Lylat System, and as I hope you noticed, I do agree with him on several points. particularly about Nintendo changing it every bloody time:hoppingma

Roger, I'm heading back to Corneria.

Oh, and just on that point, the volcanic planet that he mentions in his comments could be MacBeth, since in Starfox 2 the planet is covered in lava.

Edit: I hadn't noticed that moon like planet in assault until I watched that video, but there is still no conclusive evidence that that's MacBeth, and I'm not really sure that much attention should be paid to Assault's backgrounds anyway, 1) they show the planets WAY to close together, & 2) Just simple things like, when above or on Corneria, you can see Fichina just fine, but you cannot see Sector-Y, Katina or the asteroid belt.

 

[Fox's_Feather]

Yeah you're right on many points. It's been a while I didn't study those planets and I don't feel like to right now so I'll agree. Still I think this disposition is the most pertinent and close to "reality" (if we can say that)

Just, I don't think the argument of the LylatWars SF64 disposition is a good one. The planets disposition changes in almost every game, and they probably didn't care for an order by the time they made the game so, it was just a random disposition to fit with the feeling they wanted to give.
(Like, if you had the industrial planet Macbeth as a second level of the game, it would have sucked, being an important base and having a low difficulty) If you get what I mean.

As for the sectors, X, Y and Z, it is said several times in many places, like in the SF 64 Player's Guide that Solar is placed in the center of those 3. Maybe then their positions are a few more farther but it is correct.

 

[TLSO]

I say improvise. Star Fox "canon" doesn't really exist, so make up whatever arrangement suits you. I know I used to support the star cluster idea, back when it really mattered to me.

 

[Andross]

As for the sectors, X, Y and Z, it is said several times in many places, like in the SF 64 Player's Guide that Solar is placed in the center of those 3. Maybe then their positions are a few more farther but it is correct.

Okay, I haven't seen the player's guide. so I didn't know that... But I'd suggest that if Solar has nebula in orbit around it, it supports the small star theory more than the planet, or at the very least an unstable gas giant.

I say improvise. Star Fox "canon" doesn't really exist, so make up whatever arrangement suits you. I know I used to support the star cluster idea, back when it really mattered to me.

What we really need is for Nintendo to release a definitive star map, even if it doesn't match up to their earlier games--at least then there would be canon.

All ships, report in!

 

[Fox's_Feather]

I say improvise. Star Fox "canon" doesn't really exist, so make up whatever arrangement suits you. I know I used to support the star cluster idea, back when it really mattered to me.

That's right, but it's just a pleasant thing to make up a real map.
I have a friend who tries to make the chronology of Zelda. It's almost impossible but he pick even the smallest elements like the evolutions of the Zoras (lol?) to set up a correct chronology.

Okay, I haven't seen the player's guide. so I didn't know that... But I'd suggest that if Solar has nebula in orbit around it, it supports the small star theory more than the planet, or at the very least an unstable gas giant.

Fine, I just took a look at the game guide, indeed it is said that Solar is an M-Class Star. In StarFox Command they say it's a Planet...W/e

Check that: http://www.noelshack.com/uploads/63Solar2049633.JPG
"An M-Class star. Solar is in the middle of Lylat's sector X-Y-Z triangle. [...]"

And that: http://www.noelshack.com/uploads/67Solar6077350.JPG
"With a surface temperature in excess of 3500 degress Kelvin, Solar is the undisputed hot spot in the Lylat System. When measured against other stars in the system, however, Solar looks downright frigid. Solar is a red M-Class dwarf, one of the coldest stars in the universe. In contrast, Solar's antithesis, a B-Class Blue star, has a searing surface temperature of 25000 degrees Kelvin [...]"

Thats some proof you can't deny of the position of Solar between the three sectors and of the existence of another star in the system. XD

 

[DZComposer]

I'll just recycle this post from a similar thread at Arwing Landing. The best I could come up with with the information we have:

We haven't gotten an official full map since SF64.

But, we have gotten clues.

SFAs's map comes from the website, and isn't very helpful, though most things are vaguely where they should be (and I mean that very liberally). Also, you can clearly see that you are close to a planet that looks remarkably like Titania during the Sargasso mission.

SFC's map was an abridged SF64 map.

Most of the SNES map locations have been retconned (Only Corneria, Venom, and the Asteroid Field are in their canon locations), so that map is useless in determining things.

Based on the Sargasso clue and the SFAs map, I have come up with this:

NOTE: All locations approximate

1 - Corneria
2 - Katina
3 - Fortuna
4 - Fichina
5 - Sauria
6 - Aquas
7 - Titania
8 - Venom
9 - Solar
10 - Macbeth
11 - Zoness
A - Orbital Gate
B - Sargasso
C - Asteroid Field
D - Area 6
E - Bolse
X - Sector X
Y - Sector Y
Z - Sector Z
! preceding = Possible Location

 

[Fox's_Feather]

Nice way to put things, especially for the SF Assault map which was a complete mess up at a first look. But it doesn't bring any proof of their positions from the main star Lylat.
Other than that, the position of everything on the SF64 map looks perfectly correct, except for Sauria, which I didn't understand.

 

[Falco314]

i believe he meant Sauria would be at the spot he placed the "!5"

 

[Andross]

you can clearly see that you are close to a planet that looks remarkably like Titania during the Sargasso mission.

Except that Sargasso and the asteroid belt both have the same sky box, and in both locations you can also see Sector-Y in the background. I can't remember off hand, but I'd think you are probably looking at Katina in Sargasso, since for some stupid reason the gave Katina rings...:doubtful::confused1:doubtful:

The rest looks good though. Where does that top image come from?

And that: http://www.noelshack.com/uploads/67Solar6077350.JPG
"With a surface temperature in excess of 3500 degress Kelvin, Solar is the undisputed hot spot in the Lylat System. When measured against other stars in the system, however, Solar looks downright frigid. Solar is a red M-Class dwarf, one of the coldest stars in the universe. In contrast, Solar's antithesis, a B-Class Blue star, has a searing surface temperature of 25000 degrees Kelvin [...]"

Thats some proof you can't deny of the position of Solar between the three sectors and of the existence of another star in the system. XD

Very interesting. Good find:yes:
I think I need to get my hands on one of these player's guides...

BTW: Did you notice that in the Command map, the Sectors are no longer in a perfect triangle around Solar:confused1 I tell you it was an alright game but Command really ran amok with StarFox canon

Interceptor system dead ahead!

 

[DZComposer]

Except that Sargasso and the asteroid belt both have the same sky box, and in both locations you can also see Sector-Y in the background. I can't remember off hand, but I'd think you are probably looking at Katina in Sargasso, since for some stupid reason the gave Katina rings...:doubtful::confused1:doubtful:

The rest looks good though. Where does that top image come from?

That kind of threw me at first also, but if you look a little closer at the SFAs map, it doesn't make sense for Sargasso to be near Katina. The planet looks way to much like Titania for that theory anyway.

I also didn't remember the two levels using the same skybox, I'll have to look again.

 

[Andross]

Arwing landing - Starfox 64 players guide.
T i t a n i a

Also known as the "Red Planet," because of the ion storms which stir up dust from the planet's surface, Titania is also home to some strange and ancient archaeological findings. In fact, scientists have discovered a high-tech, although very old, defensive system known as Goras, which is coincidentally the boss of this level.

Millions of years ago, it is believed that Titania was a thriving planet, filled with a technologically advanced race of agrarian farmers. These people built cities of stone using almost modern day scientific equipment. The centerpeice of these towns were the temples, where the Goras were given sacrifices by the people. But after an asteroid collided with the planet, all life, save the Goras, ceased to exist and the Red Planet was born.

Planet Class: D
Hydrographics: 0%
Planet Radius: 4,397 skm
Albedo: .15
Gravity: .48g
Biomass: 355 quads
Equilibrium Temperature: 226K
Atmosphere Mixture: N2-30, CO2-23 and O2-23
Escape Velocity: 6.79 skm/s

What do you know I was right, I hadn't seen this when I listed Titania as a cold planet, but here is proof: 226 Kelvin is pretty cold (By comparison Fichina is 220, and 0 Celsius is 273K).

This information supposedly comes from the SF64 player's guide, I'd appreciate it if anyone could verify this.

Hold still and let me shoot you!

 

[Fox's_Feather]

Those informations are in fact, right.
If anyone is interested, I have scanned whole the SF64 game guide. :yes:

http://www.noelshack.fr/uploads/43Titania2013399.JPG
Sorry for the quality

And yes, Titania is a cold desert. It looks red because of the Ion Storms, not because of the heat.
Let's take again the map I gave in my first post: http://undyingnephalim.deviantart.com/art/Lylat-System-Theory-revised-97047817?offset=25#comments
if you study the temperatures, Titania has the best chances to be the nearest planet of Solar.
Why? Because it has indeed a cold temperature, but it is still the hottest of the planets around. Corneria is hotter because it's supposed to be near of the central Lylat Star. (279°K)
Fichina, supposed being the fifth planet, just beyond Corneria, is closer of Solar than Lylat. Therefor it is cooler. (220°K)
And so we arrive at Solar, the M-Class Star with a surface temperature of 3500°K. I think it does only slow down the cooling of the planets farther from Lylat Star.
Indeed, after, we have Titania, which stays at a cold 226°K, but it's not so cold yet.
The last planet is Venom, with a very cold atmosphere, only 188°K. It is far from both Solar and Lylat, that's why it must be the last planet, plus they say it's an unknown planet.

I jumped Aquas and Zoness on purpose, same for MacBeth and Fortuna, because it is to me the only problem of the map.
Zoness is like the hottest planet in Lylat System, with a good 283°K, followed by Aquas, 280°K.
Mainwhile, MacBeth is a kinda cold planet, with a little 230°K.
That's why in my opinion, we should switch Zoness and MacBeth. Plus MacBeth would be at the right place just like in SF64, right next Venom.
Then, I would switch Aquas and Fortuna.
On the map, Aquas is between Solar and Fichina. Aquas is 280°K, it would be logical to place it just behind Zoness. (only 3° difference)
Fortuna is a Jungle tropical planet, why not put it near Solar?

Okay, to sum up, in my opinion the order should be:

- Lylat Star 25 000°K -
1) Zoness (283°K)
2) Aquas (280°K)
3) Katina (281°K... damn, should we switch it with Aquas again?)
4) Corneria, of course (279°K)
- Meteo Belt + Sargasso? -
5) Fichina (220°K, in the far distance from both Lylat and Solar)
6) Fortuna (unknow temperature, but a tropical jungle all around the planet, plus it could exeplain the confusion of Fichina/Fortuna, long time considered as twin planets)
- Solar 3500°K + The 3 Sectors -
7) Titania (226°K, hotter than Fichina because closer of Solar)
8) MacBeth (230°K, switch with Titania...?)
- Bolse/Area 6 -
9) Venom (188°K Beyond Solar, very far from Lylat)

?) Sauria, I'd say on the opposite side of Lylat from Corneria. By the way this planet sux, I bet Rare added it for SF Adventures without studying the planets disposition before. I hate SF Adventure anyway.

Okay, that was long and complicated, I'll make a break. XD

 

[Colyo]

Hold up here.

I was pretty sure that Sargasso was in Sector Z. Anyone got proof its in meteo?
(then again, theres alot of sources yet I havent checked.)

Members of the team complain about Titania being hot in Star Fox Command if I remember correctly. If im wrong there, one thing I know im right about is that in command there is rocky terrain on the surface of solar. Also, rocks shoot out of the surface in Star Fox 64, if you think Command has no say in canon. Definately a planet.

The biggest problem with this is that Nintendo is so inconsistent with their facts from SF game to SF game that there really is no canon map in the end, and if there is, its the one in command because it is the most recent source.

I reccomend the one from Deviant Art, as it makes the most sense to me, but really it is open to interpretation, and it really shouldn't be a big deal in the end.

Macbeth is definately not Venoms moon, way too large, and way too far.

 

[Andross]

Okay, to sum up, in my opinion the order should be:

- Lylat Star 25 000°K -
1) Zoness (283°K)
2) Aquas (280°K)
3) Katina (281°K... damn, should we switch it with Aquas again?)
4) Corneria, of course (279°K)
- Meteo Belt + Sargasso? -
5) Fichina (220°K, in the far distance from both Lylat and Solar)
6) Fortuna (unknown temperature, but a tropical jungle all around the planet, plus it could exeplain the confusion of Fichina/Fortuna, long time considered as twin planets)
- Solar 3500°K + The 3 Sectors -
7) Titania (226°K, hotter than Fichina because closer of Solar)
8) MacBeth (230°K, switch with Titania...?)
- Bolse/Area 6 -
9) Venom (188°K Beyond Solar, very far from Lylat)

[EDIT]So like this?

Hey that actually works, except for the Sectors...[END EDIT]

Now we're getting scientific!:yes: I like your order here. don't switch Katina... wait I was about to say something very dumb there, Yes you probably do want to swap Katina; the reason being that the water planet of Aquas would have a thicker atmosphere than Katina, and would keep the heat better further out than Katina would (Thus the temperatures being within a dagree of each other). But then on the other hand, the atmosphere might refract more energy in the first place...:doubtful:

My only gripe with your map is that the heating of the planets from solar would only work as long as they were on the same side of Lylat as it. unless planets 6-9 are in orbit around Solar, which is in turn in distant orbit around Lylat.

But Good map. Now if only we had the thickness of the atmospheres, we could work this out for good.:yes::yes:

?) Sauria, I'd say on the opposite side of Lylat from Corneria. By the way this planet sux, I bet Rare added it for SF Adventures without studying the planets disposition before. I hate SF Adventure anyway.

Hey, don't knock it too much! that's the game that introduced me to StarFox!
But odds on you're right, they certainly didn't work very hard at keeping continuity between it and Lylat Wars, did they? I for the most part blame that, and many of the inconsistency's unto the game's self, on the fact that it is basically a dungeons and dragons game, changed into a spacey game at the last minute, thus lots of the magical items were transferred into technological ones, and because it was in the Lylat system; why it hadn't been colonised before.

Hold up here.

I was pretty sure that Sargasso was in Sector Z. Anyone got proof its in meteo?

Only the fact that the sky box is the same as the asteroid belt (which isn't specifically named Meteo anyway). Oh and the music is the same as Sector-Y.

Members of the team complain about Titania being hot in Star Fox Command if I remember correctly. If im wrong there, one thing I know im right about is that in command there is rocky terrain on the surface of solar. Also, rocks shoot out of the surface in Star Fox 64, if you think Command has no say in canon. Definately a planet.

Yeah, but are you really going to take that story line into account? the whole thing is completely whacked story wise. besides, we have just established that in the official player's guide it says that Titania is cold like Mars, and Solar is a Star.

The biggest problem with this is that Nintendo is so inconsistent with their facts from SF game to SF game that there really is no canon map in the end, and if there is, its the one in command because it is the most recent source.

However, the player's guide--thus Lylat Wars--is the most detailed and comprehensive set of information, leading me to trust that source more that others.

Macbeth is definately not Venoms moon, way too large, and way too far.

Yeah...Like I said, I hadn't actually read anything from the player's guide when I first made up my arrangement. So I hadn't read the relative sizes. Thus your point is well made, MacBeth is no moon (It's a space station!:lol.

That's the biggest Trash-Compactor I've ever seen.