Author Topic: So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself  (Read 718 times)

Woolie Wool

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« on: February 09, 2010, 12:33:52 PM »
You can't bury this by deleting that thread. It's posted on HLP where you do not have moderation powers. So, are you going to defend yourself? Or would you like me to go there and publicly point out that you are a coward?

ShadowGorrath

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 12:54:49 PM »
I said I'll respond when I'm not busy.
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Dragon

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 10:43:14 PM »
This is going nowhere, maybe just sit down and talk about it?

ShadowGorrath

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 12:22:32 PM »
Alright, Woolie Wool, here's my simple response.

Firstly, I have to say that I will not apologise. And you don't have to bother anyone else about it- it ain't gonna happen. If you had decided to deal with this issue internally, without attacking me in public like that, I might have decided to apologise. But instead you chose to attack me in public, in your own version of our discussion, which you turned into a hate speech and put my name on it. I trusted you, and took it as nothing more than words in a discussion with someone equal to me. Instead you felt offended, and without even trying to solve it, you made an issue out of it, and attacked me in public. Give me one good reason why I should apologise to you for attacking me in the lowest way possible, after breaking trust, and showing me as something evil?

I do not let such things interfere with my work- whether it'd be school work, an actual job, or something as simple and unimportant as a game's modding project. I do not care what a person's skin color, orientation, or beliefs are when it comes to such work. It's just my personal opinion on homosexuals - mere words, beliefs, not backed by any actions - that you are so ofended in, and I thought you understood that when it discussed. Aparently you didn't, took it as an insult, rewrote it as a hate speech with my name on it, and chose to attack me in the, possibly, only online community I go to, instead of actually trying to tell me that it offended you and you didn't want to discuss any further. I won't repeat myself more, you get my point.

I'll just let this go instead. HLP's community already hated me, so what you posted is not that much relevant on the effects side. I'll be the better man and not demand your apologies for this. I will not demand you return the assets that I shared with your project, and hope that you will see reason, and won't let this get in the way of our project collaboration.
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Woolie Wool

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 02:38:50 PM »
Why should I apologize? You are the one who spewed hateful, evil statements about homosexuals at me. Believe it or not, if you say offensive things about minority groups to a member of said minority, you will deeply offend this person! If you started ranting about "niggers" to a black person, do you think that guy would want to work with you? You seem to think ranting about fags and how they must die to a homosexual is somehow not a big deal, but it is. It's extremely offensive. It's so offensive that I was in a boiling rage for hours. You have no idea, you're not in an oppressed minority, you don't have to worry about people attacking or killing you for the way you were born, casual discrimination against you everywhere you go, and feeling like an outsider in your own country.

You have no fucking idea how much you hurt me doing that. My retaliation is not even one tenth of that. The people you talk to on the internet are real people, and being told that I deserve to die for the way I was born by someone who I thought was a friend is saddening, enraging, and sickening. And yes, those words about executing homosexuals are hate speech, just like ranting about sending "niggers" back to Africa would be. How could you possibly think you could say something like that to a homosexual without deeply insulting him?

Stop pretending saying this shit is acceptable. It's not acceptable. I saw some charts about this on another forum, maybe I could find them a little later when I'm not so busy. One of them shows how homophobia and discrimination have elevated depression and suicide rates more than 50% higher than normal in not just gay people but straight people that their peers think are gay. That's bad.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 02:44:55 PM by Woolie Wool »

ShadowGorrath

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 03:34:40 PM »
How is giving such an opinion offending, when I just expressed my opinion, not aiming it at you and not basing it on actions? For example, I am religious, yet I don't bother myself with feeling incredibly offended when atheists claim that God doesn't exist and that I am stupid/incompetent for believing in God, or when radical muslim people claim that I should die for being a Christian.

Moreso, like you, I have the freedom of speech. Without aiming it at anyone in particular, I can freely express my opinion, which I did, with someone I also took for a friend. Heck, I didn't even know about your orientation, and you could have just told me in the begining that it was offensive to you and you wanted me to stop talking on that topic. I would have, and then all this could have been avoided.

Now, believe it or not, I am actually feeling like an outsider amongst my peers. I'm being open, and honest to you now, and hope you won't use this against me, but here: people hate me for the way I am. That's probably the reason why I developed such hate to some specific kinds of people, even though I'm not doing anything to express that hate.

Also, I'm pretty tolerant to people regardless of what they say. I'm pretty sure I would still work with someone who's ranting about the way I am. Direct example can be taken: I accepted Hades onto the End War team, even though he's insulting me and my country usually. Sure, there are limits, but I don't view your case as being something over that limit.

Lastly, I suggest you view what I said yesterday not as a hate speech, like you claim it to be, but, again, like I said, as a discussion, because that's what it was to me when we talked. I didn't mean it to be offensive, and you could have told me to change topic at any time.
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Woolie Wool

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 10:55:23 PM »
It is offensive to say that homosexuals deserve to die, even if it was not aimed at anyone in particular, much like it is offensive to say that black people should go back to Africa or that Stalin should have killed all the Lithuanians. It is a really, really horrible thing to say on general principle. Hate speech does not have to be aimed at a specific person to be hateful, it can just be about a group of people (gays, black people, Lithuanians, etc.). Is you actual opinion somewhat different from what you presented on MSN, because "fags should die" is really, really awful.

This sort of shit takes on many forms both obvious ("fags should die") and more subtle and insidious (casually referring to things you don't like as "gay', like in "this band is gay"). All are harmful to the people the words refer to. Despite what the old proverb might say, words do hurt, and yours cut very deep. Even the lesser offenses, like the casual use of "gay" as a disparaging term, bother the victims of the terminology, if not nearly as much.

I understand if people also hate you for the way you are, but two wrongs do not make a right. I try to avoid any kind of hate, even if it's tempting to hate rednecks, fundamentalists, and people who voted for Proposition 8. Also remember that the problems we face every day are really, really bad. People get murdered for their sexual orientation. In some places revealing your orientation, even to your family, is a game of Russian roulette. I had the luck of having a supportive family. Some people do not have that luck.

I hope you will understand one day that homosexuals are not bad people. We are no more likely to steal, kill, attack people, or lie than anyone else. People's sexual preferences should be tolerated unless they involve a lack of consent or sex with those who cannot consent--children, the mentally handicapped, animals. Why persecute people for what they do in the bedroom between consenting adults? They know what they are doing; they are not hurting anyone.

And no, gay pride ceremonies are not part of our sex lives. They are political demonstrations against oppression and persecution and a show of solidarity in the face of hostility. If there were no homophobia, these parades would not exist because there would be no need for them. They are loud and attention-getting because they, like all protests, must be. Sitting at home talking politely about gay rights isn't going to get anything done. For us, it is similar to the protest Martin Luther King led in Washington for black people, or that video you showed me of people defiantly singing Lithuanian songs in front of oncoming tanks.

And remember, just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean everyone will accept it. You really touched a nerve with what you said and it's hurt me a great deal. I will work with you again if and when you agree accept us as human beings equal to the same degree of rights and dignity as yourself. I have laid out my conditions, and I do not think they are particularly harsh or unfair.

ShadowGorrath

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 11:39:49 AM »
Maybe I did overreact in the heat of discussion- happens to everyone, even you ( remember when we discussed about the PAK FA's real designation and how it ended? ). Moreso, I do not demand my opinion to be accepted as the right one, I'm just expressing it.

Eitherway, just gonna repeat: I didn't mean to offend you, since I took you for a friend. And neither this incident, nor your orientation wouldn't bother me should we work again.

And lastly, I never said that homosexuals were not human beings. I just said that I hate them, in general, and that's just an opinion, nothing more. What makes us human and seperates us from animals, is not based on orientation, race or faith.
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Woolie Wool

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 05:59:08 PM »
But I am not comfortable with dealing with someone who hates people like me, especially since there is no rational reason to hate homosexuals. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean I can't be offended by it. How many black people do you think would willingly work with an unapologetic racist?

ShadowGorrath

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 06:43:31 PM »
Well, what you are demanding is for me to give up my opinion and take yours as the right one. That is not going to happen. So I suggest you disregard it, or we won't accomplish anything with this.

EDIT: Just a btw, I wanted to say this. Up until now, I had no direct relations with anyone of your orientation- I didn't know any in person, besides that one classmate from my previous school, with whom I didn't talk, and barely even knew. Now, you're one of the direct examples. So just so you know, if this were, for example, a first-time diplomatic meeting between the two sides' representitives, you would have immediately started a war. Now, I'm still trying to fix this, "get along" and all. I suggest you do the same, and not further ruin the situation.

In short, you're giving a bad impression to an already bad opinion. So you better be a friendly, neutral on this part, person, like when we first met and started having conversations on WLM.

And lastly, it's ME who took the most casualities. In fact, because of you, I probably won't ever fix this situation ever again, and I'll be forever treated by HLPers, and ANYONE who views HLP, as a "monster", no matter what happens afterwards. You, on the other hand, felt horribly insulted by a mere discussion that wasn't even meant to be an insult.

So what kind of man would I be if I were to APOLOGISE to you, then GIVE UP MY OPINION for yours, and then pretend like this never happened?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 07:51:09 PM by ShadowGorrath »
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Woolie Wool

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 12:26:57 AM »
Quote from: ShadowGorrath;128089
Well, what you are demanding is for me to give up my opinion and take yours as the right one. That is not going to happen. So I suggest you disregard it, or we won't accomplish anything with this.

You just don't get it, do you? When you say hateful things to a group of people that the person you are talking to belongs to, the person is going to be very upset with you! I'm actually being generous, most members of an oppressed group (any such group, whether gays, blacks, Jews, whatever) would not give you a second chance at all.

Quote
EDIT: Just a btw, I wanted to say this. Up until now, I had no direct relations with anyone of your orientation- I didn't know any in person, besides that one classmate from my previous school, with whom I didn't talk, and barely even knew. Now, you're one of the direct examples. So just so you know, if this were, for example, a first-time diplomatic meeting between the two sides' representitives, you would have immediately started a war. Now, I'm still trying to fix this, "get along" and all. I suggest you do the same, and not further ruin the situation.

Uh, you know, if you are an ambassador, and insult the representative of another country to his face and tell him his countrymen deserve to die, this will probably immediately poison diplomatic relations with that country. That's the way the world works.

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In short, you're giving a bad impression to an already bad opinion. So you better be a friendly, neutral on this part, person, like when we first met and started having conversations on WLM.

How hard is this to understand? You said horrible, horrible things about me and my kind, for no reason besides pure unreasoning hate. I don't have to prove anything, I don't have to put up with your hideous "opinions" any more than a black man doesn't have to put up with a white man who openly supports the Ku Klux Klan. You are the one who said hate speech, you caused this in the first place, you have to make amends if you want me to work with you again. You seem to think that spewing grave, extremely offensive insults about other people is no big deal. It is a big deal. It's perhaps the fastest way to kill a friendship in existence outside of going at someone with a knife, and in real life such things are often literal fighting words.

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And lastly, it's ME who took the most casualities. In fact, because of you, I probably won't ever fix this situation ever again, and I'll be forever treated by HLPers, and ANYONE who views HLP, as a "monster", no matter what happens afterwards. You, on the other hand, felt horribly insulted by a mere discussion that wasn't even meant to be an insult.

It is an insult! Telling a homosexual that homosexuals should die is an insult, and it's not going to change just because you want to pretend it isn't! Even people who aren't homosexuals but support gay rights or have gay friends would probably be insulted as well. Words mean things. Saying words of hate speech tends to have negative social consequences. Take responsibility for yourself and stop trying to get out of problems you created.

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So what kind of man would I be if I were to APOLOGISE to you, then GIVE UP MY OPINION for yours, and then pretend like this never happened?

A better man? A man who learned that hatred and intolerance are wrong? A man who has learned something important about life? A man who has taken responsibility for his actions and made amends like an adult instead of trying to run away from what he has done and the damage he has caused like a child?

What you are doing doesn't make you much of a man at all, I'm afraid. It's rather...childish.

You treat opinions as if they don't mean anything to other people. That is very, very wrong. My terms remain the same as ever. Take them or leave them.

ShadowGorrath

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 09:31:04 AM »
Fine, as you wish. Have it your way. I tried being reasonable, I didn't demand you to apologise to me, I promised I'd disregard your orientation so we could work together. But you chose to play the victim instead. Well, so be it. You can leave at any time, just ask the admins to rename the forum description to 'Aces High and DEFCON FreeSpace'.

You just permanently proven to me that people of your orientation can't be reasoned with. What I tried to deal with you and fix this situation, you chose to stay ignorant and demand what you do not deserve. Fine, this doesn't change anything in any way, I see no loss. DEFCON FreeSpace can live on without your help, even though I can think of only one instance that you helped me. And Wings can live on without my converted/edited models, effects, sound files, and various other features that I had or would have had.

What's childish is that you chose to ignore my offer- I didn't demand anything, I wanted only for us to get along, as you kept demanding an apology and me giving up my opinion/beliefs, as if I hadn't taken any casualities. In fact, it's you who should apologise, but am I posting about that every time, am I demanding that to happen? You permanently ruined my relations with other HLP members- what was bad, you made it only worse, and as you enjoy your little-gain victory over someone you crushed, you demand more, attempting to crush me further, as I offer nothing more than simple cooperation with peaceful relations. Well, you're not getting that luxury. Enjoy that little victory as you almost certainly ruined 2 giant projects and put someone who took you as a friend into a shitty position. I'm sure it's all "acceptable", considering that I "offended" your orientation and all the people involved. But you are not gaining anything else than that. Happy now?

I will not discuss this any further. You made your decision.
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Woolie Wool

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So, ShadowGorrath, what do you have to say for yourself
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 02:16:56 PM »
I can be reasoned with. In fact, I reasoned with you throughout this thread. You, however, have decided to close your eyes to the truth and cling to your mindless bigotry, all the while playing the victim over an issue that is your fault. Maybe when you are older you will understand, but right now you make yourself look more pathetic with each post.

I've been very merciful; all my friends and family told me that I should have just told you to fuck off and die, yet I didn't.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 02:20:19 PM by Woolie Wool »