Poll

Which game of the series do you prefer?

reeSpace 1
12 (29.3%)
reeSpace 2
19 (46.3%)
n my opinion, they\'re both on the same level
10 (24.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Author Topic: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?  (Read 92949 times)

ngtm1r

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FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2009, 11:39:19 AM »
Quote
Is it sooo hard for you to check the FreeSpace Wiki and take a look at FS1's inconsistencies?


Quote from: ngtm1r;119685
The wiki doesn't actually point out an unambigous insistance of such. Many of the node inconsistencies only exist once we got the full view in the Colossus cutscene, for example.


Quote from: ngtm1r;119672
Many of the inconsistencies only exist in comparison with FS2. To hold them against FS1 when comparing the games is not only patently unfair, but stupid. The inconsistancies should most likely be counted against FS2 and not FS1 because it introduced them.


You mean the ones we already shot down as mostly not FS1's fault? Repeatedly, if you count Kara doing so?
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Snail

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« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2009, 12:16:40 PM »
Quote from: Mobius;119786
And it's quite funny for me to attract all of the flak even if I'm one of the very few FS2 purists who claimed, among other things, that FS1's atmosphere was superior to that of FS2. The point is that considering the good (atmosphere) and forgetting the bad (inconsistencies, predictable ending) is not correct.
It's because your arguments are constructed out of paper towels.

Mobius

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« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2009, 12:25:20 PM »
Actually, not. The Node map (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Node_map), for example, came before FreeSpace 2. V said the Node map released in 1998 should override the others, so I don't understand the whole "FS2 is the cause of most FS1 inconsistencies" deal. The second game of the series used that Node map, but the reasons behind that choice are pretty obvious.

You simply don't know, because the following has absolutely nothing to do with FreeSpace 2:


http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Node_Inconsistencies

Quote
Used in First Strike (SM1-10). Admiral Wolf says that the Taranis has been chased from the Beta Cygni system back to the Ikeya system, and the Taranis is fleeing to the Beta Cygni node during the mission itself. It is very likely, however, that this is a mistake. The cutscene immediately preceding this mission (not to mention the official node map itself) shows that the only subspace node out of Ikeya leads to Ribos. Additionally, during the mission, Freighter Halkins tows the cruiser to Tombaugh Installation, which is located in Ribos. It is probable that the mission designer just confused Ribos with Beta Cygni.


Now tell me, how is this related to FreeSpace 2? You and karajorma haven't shot down anything because that quote clearly proves how FS2 is totally unrelated to that mistake. Also, it's quite funny how the Talania system has disappeared - had FS1 been a better game, we would have more info regarding Talania.


Sorry, but my point here is that a game with so many mistakes cannot be considered superior. To be honest, I have never seen so many inconsistencies in a game - useless to say that those inconsistencies affect my opinion, as I find mistakes of that kind a sign of not-so-good storytelling. This poll is about the games, not the storylines (in that case, I would have put FS1 and FS2 pretty much to the same level, with FS2 being only a few steps ahead), so considering mistakes is all but necessary if the analysis has to be complete and plausible.

If I really have to say more, I can focus your attention on FS1 fleets: warships were either cruisers or destroyers, and variety was incredibly poor. In fact, despite having different characteristics, the Fenris and Leviathan cruisers (not to mention the Cain and Lilith) were basically the same. FS2 added corvettes and various cruiser classes, thus turning the game's fleets into more plausible ones. Engine limitations have nothing to do with FS1's rosters, so the first game's handicap cannot be justified.

I would really like to know what your reply to these facts (not opinions) will be like - I'm pretty curious.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 08:45:08 PM by Mobius »

Mobius

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« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2009, 12:31:59 PM »
Actually, not. Take a look at the other post (which is currently waiting authorization).

Why is that post waiting authorization, by the way? Was it too long?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 12:40:59 PM by Mobius »

Snail

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« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2009, 12:58:08 PM »
Quote from: Mobius;119791
Actually, not. Take a look at the other post (which is currently waiting authorization).

Why is that post waiting authorization, by the way? Was it too long?
:doubtful:

Mobius

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« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2009, 01:07:57 PM »
There's a quote from the Node Inconsistencies article in the Wiki. It mentions an error in the node map which contradicts FS1 itself. The official node map (which was designed later) and FreeSpace 2 don't have anything to do with it.

And since you seem to deny the evidence, take a look yourself:


Quote
Used in First Strike (SM1-10). Admiral Wolf says that the Taranis has been chased from the Beta Cygni system back to the Ikeya system, and the Taranis is fleeing to the Beta Cygni node during the mission itself. It is very likely, however, that this is a mistake. The cutscene immediately preceding this mission (not to mention the official node map itself) shows that the only subspace node out of Ikeya leads to Ribos. Additionally, during the mission, Freighter Halkins tows the cruiser to Tombaugh Installation, which is located in Ribos. It is probable that the mission designer just confused Ribos with Beta Cygni.


I posted other things in my post, and everything will become readable as soon as the whole post gets authorized. I don't need to rewrite the same thing again, so you just have to wait.

I guess posting more than one link (there were at least two in my post) triggers the need to get a post validated. Other than that, I don't understand why that post (and that post alone) is awaiting authorization.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 01:17:13 PM by Mobius »

Snail

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« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2009, 01:50:24 PM »
[size=9]OH MY GOD NODE INCONSISTENCIES! THE GAME IS BROKEN! ALL IS LOST!!![/size]

:doubtful:

karajorma

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« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2009, 02:01:02 PM »
Quote from: Mobius;119786
Is it sooo hard for you to check the FreeSpace Wiki and take a look at FS1's inconsistencies?

Is it sooooo hard to admit you fucked up and forgot you hadn't actually posted a link. Actually don't answer, you wouldn't have tried that bombastic nonsense if it wasn't hard.


As for the node map, Have you ever considered that the node map published after FS1 came out also was after FS2 started development?

Mobius

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« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2009, 02:01:23 PM »
FS1 also had poor variety in ship rosters. Warships were either cruisers or destroyers, and there were ships which shared the same model (Fenris/Leviathan, Cain/Lilith).

FreeSpace 2 has much more variety.

EDIT: I posted that (yeah, the Wiki) thingie instead of the link, and then forgot it. :lol:

Also, if you look at the previous post, you'd see how it's not only the node map to "cause problems". That quote clearly proves how FS1 contradicted itself. Feel free to claim whatever you want, but I find those errors and the nearly total lack of variety in ship rosters two major flaws of FreeSpace 1.

The discussion is about the games, not the storylines - in the first case I might have said that FS1 and FS2 are about to the same level. It's not the case of the actual poll, where inconsistencies and rosters also affect the quality of the game.

EDIT2: Oh, and I'd really like to know what happened to my hidden post.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 02:07:29 PM by Mobius »

Snail

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« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2009, 02:49:46 PM »
Quote from: Mobius;119802
FS1 also had poor variety in ship rosters. Warships were either cruisers or destroyers, and there were ships which shared the same model (Fenris/Leviathan, Cain/Lilith).

FreeSpace 2 has much more variety.
Yes, but the FS1 ships had more coherence in design. FS2 didn't have any overarching design features, and the ships looked dreadfully uninspired from my point of view. Whereas in FS1, each species had certain distinct characteristics on all of their ships which gave a sense of uniformity which FS2 really lacked.

Mobius

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« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2009, 03:04:55 PM »
That still doesn't justify the presence of a very poor roster.

One question: why is coherence in design needed? Why should it be a good characteristic? Designs can be various so that players can prefer certain assets over the others. I think one of the reasons behind the GTF Perseus' success is the interceptor's particular design, which is different from the others.

Snail

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« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2009, 03:10:52 PM »
Are you forgetting that FreeSpace 2 just happened to use a 90% of FS1's ship assets?


It's different building a fleet from scratch and expanding an already existent fleet.

ngtm1r

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« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2009, 03:16:24 PM »
I'm guessing Kara took pity on you in not replying, since he asked how low you would sink to nitpick. Now we know: you can find one single node inconsistancy that isn't a result of getting the full nodemap.

One.

I could pull out every time we introduced a new squadron in FS2 as an inconsistency it introduced, all the other node issues, Talania...yeah I think people get the picture here. This is a bad argument.


Quote
One question: why is coherence in design needed? Why should it be a good characteristic? Designs can be various so that players can prefer certain assets over the others. I think one of the reasons behind the GTF Perseus' success is the interceptor's particular design, which is different from the others.


Snail wasn't being very clear, to be fair, so he could in fact be referring to visual and not specification unity of design. (In which FS1 has FS2 sadly beat all to hell.)

However even assuming he's not , you're still spouting off thoughtlessly. He's referring to it across multiple ships. FS1 had a set of ships each well-suited to their individual roles. FS2 does not; the Perseus is a better space superiority fighter than the Myrmidon, the Myrmidon is a better assault fighter than the Herc 2...you get the idea. It's just not very rational.
Yea verily, though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am piloting I house-sized mass of "**** you." (With apologies to Peptuck)

Mobius

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« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2009, 03:31:40 PM »
NGTM-1R, I mentioned more than one node inconsistency in my "hidden" post. If someone decides to make it re-appear, continuing the debate would be easier. Also, I think there's a reason why I refuse to consider posts which don't add anything to the discussion and rather derail it by playing pranks.

I find your analysis of FS2's spacecraft a bit bogus, it's definitely not rare for a craft to turn out into an all-round versatile unit (which can do a lot of things). Also, don't forget that variety also implies the presence of apparently different assets which can do the same things. Are we close to claiming that the Myrmidon is so much batter than most bombers due to its ability to carry the Helios torpedo?

Don't forget the difference between absolute truth and opinion here - the evident lacks in FS1's rosters can be hardly justified and are not open to debate, as other games have more than twice the variety FreeSpace 1 had. On the other side, mentioning FS2's (supposed) missed coherence in ship design as a flaw is more an opinion than a fact, as you can't expect everyone to agree. It's not exactly like saying that out of the five cruiser classes seen in FS1, four of them were not original in the way they were handled. Calling the Azrael a freighter is not an error which is open to debates.

EDIT: There may be only a few embarassing inconsistencies in FreeSpace 1, so? They're still inconsistencies, and they're well enough to affect my opinion on the game. You surely can't force people to prefer a game over another even if these people simply can't tolerate inconsistencies in games.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 03:35:26 PM by Mobius »

General Battuta

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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2009, 04:05:48 PM »
Mobius, if you can't distill your points down into a couple sentences instead of these multi-paragraph blobs of illegible blue text (could you PLEASE use normal font?), you're barely worth debating with.

Funny how you're already acting the same way that got you banned on HLP.