Author Topic: Post-Isolation Sol Politics  (Read 13670 times)

Rodo

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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2009, 03:32:24 PM »
Quote from: Novachen;120282
As the same reason due that neither the GTVA nor the Sol-GTA have the idea to send messages from/to Alpha Centauri which is really close to Sol. *g*

Also none of the factions have the idea to build a long-range ship which can travel the five lightyears. With more research in the jump-drive and engine technology i'm sure the GTVA or maybe even the Sol-GTA were able to reduce the travel time up to many months, if not years :)


on the first one... true

on the second one... also true ^^

can't think about nothing else right now :S

Snail

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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2009, 04:01:25 PM »
Subspace travel beyond the outer rim of a system is impossible without the use of inter-system jump nodes.

Novachen

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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2009, 04:51:50 PM »
Quote from: Snail;120299
Subspace travel beyond the outer rim of a system is impossible without the use of inter-system jump nodes.


yes, i know. :)

But how far away from the sun is subspace travel still possible? Where is the border?
And it is impossible to create an own gravitation source to still use the intra-system jump-drive? So that you can jump in smaller steps towards sol?
I was there, you were there and you should never forget it. GTVA FreeSpace Convention, Paris 2001!
FreeSpace Pilot since 1999 :)

My writing work (all in english and german):
Dark Abyss (2001) - What wll happen thirteen years later, after the neo-terran front come back in service... with the shivans, of course.
At the Edge of the Abyss (2003) - fifteen years after capella the GTVA have to face their annihilation again, and this time... there is no escape.
Fallen Angel (INFR1) (2006) - 32 years have passed since the capella supernova. the GTVA has completed their GTI Melia jumpgate in delta serpentis and reopened the jump node to sol... and fall in war against an enemy named earth alliance. Furthermore... what meaning have those damn strange readings in ross 128?

ngtm1r

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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 08:06:58 AM »
Okay, I'm going to make a terrible assumption here.

First Fleet's competent.

The GTA will not collapse. First Fleet has control of all the combat hulls in Sol and, knowing as well as anyone what's going to happen, establishes control of the main production facilities as well. The means to mount an effective armed resistence to the GTA will not exist. First Fleet is in ur factories, keeping ur guns. There will be great privitation, or maybe not. But the GTA will remain in control and if ousted it will have to be done through purely political means. There's really no reason to assume First Fleet is not competent and that its officers haven't studied previous insurgency problems and will not realize what is to come. They also have the unique advantage of being the first to know.

(Yes, I just crapped all over INFA and S:AH, and who knows what else. I realize that. Doesn't change the fact S:AH is a good campaign...it's just not as logical. :P)
Yea verily, though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am piloting I house-sized mass of "**** you." (With apologies to Peptuck)

Rodo

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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2009, 02:46:58 PM »
well... could be possible indeed, but an all mighty GTA is not the dreamed resolution, in fact I guess beign part of GTVA on FS2 has made most FS fans think that GTA was actually not going to have a bright future, something like that an only terran coalition would not conquer the entire galaxy alone, thus making an alliance with the vasudans the logical next step in the human expansion.

ngtm1r

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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2009, 12:04:01 AM »
I'm pretty sure you didn't read the thread's title.
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Mobius

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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2009, 02:54:17 PM »
Judging from that post of yours, you haven't read the topic's title either. Politics and military are connected, but not necessarily glued.

Quote from: ngtm1r;121056
Okay, I'm going to make a terrible assumption here.

First Fleet's competent.

The GTA will not collapse. First Fleet has control of all the combat hulls in Sol and, knowing as well as anyone what's going to happen, establishes control of the main production facilities as well. The means to mount an effective armed resistence to the GTA will not exist. First Fleet is in ur factories, keeping ur guns. There will be great privitation, or maybe not. But the GTA will remain in control and if ousted it will have to be done through purely political means. There's really no reason to assume First Fleet is not competent and that its officers haven't studied previous insurgency problems and will not realize what is to come. They also have the unique advantage of being the first to know.

(Yes, I just crapped all over INFA and S:AH, and who knows what else. I realize that. Doesn't change the fact S:AH is a good campaign...it's just not as logical. :P)


You're basically giving for sure that the First Fleet will remain loyal to the GTA authorities. What you're completing ignoring is the fact that the vast majority of the 1st Fleet itself may cause the downfall of the GTA in Sol.

General Battuta

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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2009, 06:39:12 PM »
Both scenarios are plausible. As long as you can justify it for your story, it works.

Snail

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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 07:46:32 PM »
I'd like a campaign where utter anarchy ensues in Sol. Not because it's plausible, but because it'd be awesome.

ngtm1r

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« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2009, 02:26:08 AM »
Quote from: Mobius;121229
Judging from that post of yours, you haven't read the topic's title either. Politics and military are connected, but not necessarily glued.
You're basically giving for sure that the First Fleet will remain loyal to the GTA authorities. What you're completing ignoring is the fact that the vast majority of the 1st Fleet itself may cause the downfall of the GTA in Sol.


Power, as Mao said, grows from the barrel of a gun. First Fleet has all the guns, and thus has all the power.

A little late to the party, aren't we?

But okay, I'll bite.

Why? We've got no precedent for this kind of massive-scale disloyalty. What kind of cause can you give them for it?

The only reasonable explanation I can come up with, really, is units becoming too attached to their posts and not enough to First Fleet, and that can be remedied by contracting First Fleet to Luna/Earth (assuming it's not already all based there anyways, which it may well be), or frequent rotation.
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karajorma

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« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2009, 02:59:59 AM »
Quote from: ngtm1r;121234
Why? We've got no precedent for this kind of massive-scale disloyalty.

Ummm, Silent Threat? The NTF?

While I don't believe the entire 1st Fleet would defect a civil war would actually do a much better job of reducing Sol to the kind of anarchy where pretty much any of the Sol based campaigns became much more likely.

Similarly I can't see that happening immediately but after a year or two with the economy in ruins due to the sudden collapse in interstellar trade it's definitely a possibility.

ngtm1r

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« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2009, 03:14:57 AM »
Silent Threat happened because they had a shot: the Hades. More importantly, they were also a totally seperate organization from the normal command structure and not subject to it, making it much easier to conceal their activies and much easier for the whole defection idea to get into their heads in the first place.

The NTF had an ideal to fight for, that of the lost Earth (doesn't quite work here), but more importantly, it had a manufactured external enemy, the Vasudans. Who were in fact geniunely alien and therefore vastly easier to stir up resentment against then other humans.

First Fleet is an entity of unified command structure, whose only existing ideals are to uphold and protect the GTA, with no external enemy since there aren't terribly many Vasudans around Sol, no giant superweapon to provide a breakaway attempt any hope of a sucessful campaign.

So we're talking a minimum of five years, more probably ten, before any resistance movement of meaningful strength (for a campaign to be based on, in other words) springs up. Probably fifteen until there's a reasonable chance they seize actual control of anything.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 03:23:13 AM by ngtm1r »
Yea verily, though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am piloting I house-sized mass of "**** you." (With apologies to Peptuck)

karajorma

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« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2009, 04:04:56 AM »
Quote from: ngtm1r;121236
Silent Threat happened because they had a shot: the Hades. More importantly, they were also a totally seperate organization from the normal command structure and not subject to it, making it much easier to conceal their activies and much easier for the whole defection idea to get into their heads in the first place.


They were also an organisation almost certainly founded in Sol and probably based there too. We don't know for certain that the orders for the Hades Rebellion didn't originate from Sol before the end of the Great War (possibly even before the start of it since it takes time to build a ship the size of the Hades and it's a fairly good bet that the GTI had some contact with Shivans before the rest of the GTVA military were aware of them).

In other words we don't know how connected the GTI are in Sol. I certainly wouldn't put organising a coup in Sol past them considering how good a job they managed to do of it so far away from the system that is likely their power base.

Quote
The NTF had an ideal to fight for, that of the lost Earth (doesn't quite work here), but more importantly, it had a manufactured external enemy, the Vasudans. Who were in fact geniunely alien and therefore vastly easier to stir up resentment against then other humans.


Fair point. But it's not hard to stir up resentment at all if you really want to. And we have no idea what civilian politics are like in Sol. It could be that relations between Mars and Earth have always been a powder keg for instance. With the rest of the GTA systems gone, squabbling between those two could quickly result in all kinds of unrest and violence. If 1st fleet intervenes that is very quickly going to make the situation worse.

Quote
First Fleet is an entity of unified command structure, whose only existing ideals are to uphold and protect the GTA, with no external enemy since there aren't terribly many Vasudans around Sol, no giant superweapon to provide a breakaway attempt any hope of a sucessful campaign.


I've already pointed out that it is easy to generate an external enemy. And we've already seen from the NTF how quickly that can cause an entire fleet to defect.

Quote
So we're talking a minimum of five years, more probably ten, before any resistance movement of meaningful strength (for a campaign to be based on, in other words) springs up. Probably fifteen until there's a reasonable chance they seize actual control of anything.


Even if I bought those figures, which I don't, you've basically said that an armed rebellion can seize control of Sol (which was my main objection to your post).

ngtm1r

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« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2009, 05:47:19 AM »
Quote from: karajorma;121238
They were also an organisation almost certainly founded in Sol and probably based there too. We don't know for certain that the orders for the Hades Rebellion didn't originate from Sol before the end of the Great War (possibly even before the start of it since it takes time to build a ship the size of the Hades and it's a fairly good bet that the GTI had some contact with Shivans before the rest of the GTVA military were aware of them).

In other words we don't know how connected the GTI are in Sol. I certainly wouldn't put organising a coup in Sol past them considering how good a job they managed to do of it so far away from the system that is likely their power base.


And who's to say the Hades Rebellion wasn't a direct result of losing contact with Sol, instead? Rampant speculation cuts both ways. However, in this case we're also assuming GTI is still not crazy, and their combat forces would clearly have been out deployed towards or in the fighting. Perhaps there is a great GTI bureaucracy in Sol, but that does not a successful revolt create. This would require a subversion of regular GTA combat forces, something they specifically did not on the exterior and there is no reason they would do on the interior when most of them are probably just trying to find a new job.

Quote from: karajorma;121238

Fair point. But it's not hard to stir up resentment at all if you really want to. And we have no idea what civilian politics are like in Sol. It could be that relations between Mars and Earth have always been a powder keg for instance. With the rest of the GTA systems gone, squabbling between those two could quickly result in all kinds of unrest and violence. If 1st fleet intervenes that is very quickly going to make the situation worse.


That's missing my point. First Fleet has seized control of all combat-capable spacecraft in Sol and the means to produce more. You can't have a shooting war between the colonies now. First Fleet has shielded fightercraft armed with Disruptors to deal with your fleets of Elysiums and Chronoseseses nonlethally if they wish, or Prometheus and Banshees if they don't. The situation is now basically analogous to what would happen if Micronesia's police force was the US Navy. Nobody is resisting because there is no possible way to do so.

Their primary objective would be to maintain that state of affairs to prevent deterioration of Solar politics and the inevitable humanitarian disasters that will come with that. This is a thankless task, probably, but it is imminently doable when you're the only guy with guns.

Quote from: karajorma;121238

I've already pointed out that it is easy to generate an external enemy. And we've already seen from the NTF how quickly that can cause an entire fleet to defect.


Which ignores two important facts; Earth is still going to be overwhelmingly represented in the recruiting base, and you can base all your ships in one particular spot thanks to the subspace drive and the best spot is probably Earth from a logistical standpoint. The NTF succeeded in subverting the regional fleet. In this case, there is only one fleet and it's based in only one region. Anyone else up a creek without a paddle.

In fact tying in with the objective to maintain control above, if they really percieve a danger, First Fleet might simply restrict their recruiting efforts to one venue, thereby locking everyone else out, and their basing at another, thereby locking the recruiting venue out while simulatanously frustrating the efforts of the basing venue to subvert the fleet.

Quote from: karajorma;121238

Even if I bought those figures, which I don't, you've basically said that an armed rebellion can seize control of Sol (which was my main objection to your post).


Well, sure. I'm looking at this from a purely spaceborne perspective. Anything's possible on the ground, but as far as a shooting war in space goes, it's pretty much out of the question if First Fleet is competent. Even a marginally effective insurgency is not going to possible for at least ten years while you put together some ships to actually conduct it without somehow calling down upon your head the wrath of an Ursa wing.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 05:50:47 AM by ngtm1r »
Yea verily, though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am piloting I house-sized mass of "**** you." (With apologies to Peptuck)

General Battuta

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« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2009, 07:06:06 AM »
BP made the assumption that the great upheavals in Sol would be political, not military.