Author Topic: Is BtRL actually dead? (Nope. -Omni)  (Read 19448 times)

Mobius

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« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2008, 10:57:49 PM »
Earth Defense isn't my main project, though... :rolleyes:

Nobody here is hating a given team. I think, however, a few mod developers have all the right to post their opinions - here and on HLP - about the recent events. It's a matter of respect to consider these opinions without replying with the classic "What are you doing?", "Don't compromise the popularity of your mod!" and such comments. Giving your comment it's pretty clear that you're not a developer - try to do most of a mod job by yourself for over two years and let me know if the shortage of potential members doesn't bug people.

The point is that someone might consider the fact that there are two BSG mods a waste of resources and time. I'm not one such person, though - it's just a suspect. The two teams should find a way to collaborate, competition has certain limits. It'd be better if they regroup or, at least, cooperate.

Enki

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« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2008, 01:46:56 AM »
Quote from: Mobius;108429
Earth Defense isn't my main project, though... :rolleyes:

Nobody here is hating a given team. I think, however, a few mod developers have all the right to post their opinions - here and on HLP - about the recent events. It's a matter of respect to consider these opinions without replying with the classic "What are you doing?", "Don't compromise the popularity of your mod!" and such comments. Giving your comment it's pretty clear that you're not a developer - try to do most of a mod job by yourself for over two years and let me know if the shortage of potential members doesn't bug people.

The point is that someone might consider the fact that there are two BSG mods a waste of resources and time. I'm not one such person, though - it's just a suspect. The two teams should find a way to collaborate, competition has certain limits. It'd be better if they regroup or, at least, cooperate.


Your intuition that I am not a developer isn't so accurate. I've been gaming 1.5x longer than you have been alive and coding for almost that long too.  I am working on some SCP coding, although I have not done anything worth making me part of a team yet. Do you really want to metaphorically piss in the well of someone who will choose which features or bugs to work on?

I heard of FS_Open because of BtRL, and now that timing is workable I'm trying to do some SCP coding.  No BtRL to have caught my interest, no coding. For any FS_Open based mod.  See a direct correlation to my earlier post?  You are pissing-off someone new, introduced to the community by BtRL, who is coding in an all-mod manner for your precious engine. Is that a smart thing to do?

Until this post I have given you opportunities to stop being an elitest. You have deferred the opportunity.  I suggest you adjust attitude and learn something about how to work with people, not against them.

--OUT.

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« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2008, 08:40:27 AM »
major LOL

Mobius

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« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2008, 11:23:45 AM »
Quote from: Enki;108431
Your intuition that I am not a developer isn't so accurate. I've been gaming 1.5x longer than you have been alive and coding for almost that long too.  I am working on some SCP coding, although I have not done anything worth making me part of a team yet. Do you really want to metaphorically piss in the well of someone who will choose which features or bugs to work on?

I heard of FS_Open because of BtRL, and now that timing is workable I'm trying to do some SCP coding.  No BtRL to have caught my interest, no coding. For any FS_Open based mod.  See a direct correlation to my earlier post?  You are pissing-off someone new, introduced to the community by BtRL, who is coding in an all-mod manner for your precious engine. Is that a smart thing to do?

Until this post I have given you opportunities to stop being an elitest. You have deferred the opportunity.  I suggest you adjust attitude and learn something about how to work with people, not against them.

--OUT.


There are many differences between coding a few to complement other people's work and FREDding a lot to run a mod and prevent its death. You behave as if you're at the same level of Taylor, Karajorma, Goober5000, WMCoolmon and the others and "pissing you off" would cause the SCP to be adandoned or something. Come on! Why would the opinion of an outsider modder - because I'm an outsider, not a member of the FS community's elite - disencourage you?

You're not the major SCP contributor and you don't seem to know what working solely on a project really means. Had the whole 3.6.10 bugfixing been under your responsability then yes, I would have understood your point of view.

You're also focusing the discussion on me while I clearly mentioned devs like pecenipicek. My point of view is also the point of view of many others...someone made his opinion public while most didn't.

I suggest BtRL guys to cooperate with Diaspora ones while maintaining their status of independent modders. I don't care what you, Enki, think about my point of view.

Snagger

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« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2008, 01:04:50 PM »
Quote from: Enki;108427

Just ask yourself what percentage of the BtRL/Diaspora crowd would have never known of any other FS_Open mod because they didn't even know about FS2 & FS_Open.  I'm sure it's a very high percentage.
Sums me up perfectly - I'm not much of a gamer, and only stumbled across BtRL on a BSG Google search.  I'd never heard of Free Space before that.

I'm glad that some agree that sharing resources would be beneficial, where appropriate.  I suspect that such agreement was all that was intended by Mobius, not a condemnation of the duplication now happening, or at least I hope so.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 03:54:54 PM by Snagger »
something I do understand;)  : http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk

Mobius

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« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2008, 02:46:12 PM »
A lot of people know about FreeSpace and the SCP thanks to BSG mods but that's not the point. Most of them aren't going to get involved in FreeSpace and ignore the efforts behind the upgrade of the SCP. These people have poor-to-unexistant experience of modding a la FreeSpace and are, therefore, not going to revolution the community with other than lurker roles.

And yes, I really want to know if both teams would like to cooperate.

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« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2008, 03:59:01 PM »
Quote from: Mobius;108440
... And yes, I really want to know if both teams would like to cooperate.


I honestly second this question Mobius did above
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Enki

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« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2008, 12:01:11 AM »
Quote from: Snagger;108439
Sums me up perfectly - I'm not much of a gamer, and only stumbled across BtRL on a BSG Google search.  I'd never heard of Free Space before that.

I'm glad that some agree that sharing resources would be beneficial, where appropriate.  I suspect that such agreement was all that was intended by Mobius, not a condemnation of the duplication now happening, or at least I hope so.


Quote from: Deckard;108441
I honestly second this question Mobius did above


Well given the fact Diaspora exists because of a split with BtRL the chances for overt open cooperation are somewhere between slim and none with slim last seen on a bus leaving town. Mobius is very aware of that and for some inexplicable reason running pecenipicek's "BSG is hurting other mods" criticisms here after those same views were rather forcefully rebuffed by everyone on the HLP board where the original exchange took place.

Not to mention that he isn't exactly acting the part of a friend of BtRL & Diaspora, he is in a fairly straight-up way stirring things up, for the sake of stirring them up.  Mobiius feels he KNOWS the status of things over here. His words from the HLP board:

Quote from: Mobius
At this point I wonder if BtRL is still running...in case of death you should change your policy on BtRL stuff.


Quote from: Mobius
That's right...and most BtRL members passed to Diaspora...


Quote from: Mobius
I'd like to get INFA done before working on ED.

And yeah, the whole new forum is pretty active. Diaspora is a nice, promising mod. :)


Quote from: Mobius
Well, it's a matter of opinions. Officially, most BtRL team members left to form the new Diaspora team...but looks like, well, most BtRL members got rid of the others who're still on GW for partially known reasons. If people had different opinions on internal a poll should've been enough to clarify everything. If so many members agreed with Karajorma why did the others refuse to accept the fact that the plans for a BSG mod needed urgent changes?

I don't find the members of the Diaspora team childish(how can Karajorma be childish?!?). I think the others are pretty childish because they think to keep BtRL running with a skeleton team and without the support of so many. HLP is all for Diaspora.


He knows about the split, he knows who is left working with who. He positions himself as a stand-up team player over at HLP, but here he is sowing, fear, uncertainty and doubt that BtRL and Diaspora are hurting other mod's ability to get finished. AND that the BtRL team is less than deserving of everyone's full support. That is a completely baseless and unfounded conclusion.

I personally want to see both mods do well. Hell I would like to see all the FS_Open mods do well, even ED despite Mobius' recent posting record.  With the recent GOG listing of FS2 and a little help from VMWare I am running FS_Open on the Mac and have looked at several of the other mods.  It is a cool community!  It's very unfortunate that some seem to be trying to split it or cause dissension due to some misplaced jealousy.

Quote from: Mobius;108440
A lot of people know about FreeSpace and the SCP thanks to BSG mods but that's not the point. Most of them aren't going to get involved in FreeSpace and ignore the efforts behind the upgrade of the SCP. These people have poor-to-unexistant experience of modding a la FreeSpace and are, therefore, not going to revolution the community with other than lurker roles.


He just doesn't get it and once again ignored the fact that if even a small percentage of folks are getting involved that would have never been involved before, it is a good thing, not a bad thing. And revolution?  Who want's revolution?  I certainly wouldn't think that just because some new members are unlikely to "revolutionize" something is reason for acting in an alienating manner.

In a put-up or shut up move I started coding on the SCP engine a few weeks ago.  I'm just a pogue, not yet part of any team because I havent delivered.  Yet. I hardly consider myself deserving of any special status, but I guess coders not named "Taylor, Karajorma, Goober5000, WMCoolmon" are chopped liver where he comes from and not deserving of any encouragement or welcoming into a VERY small community.

Why is is to hard to play nice in the sandbox? Is that going to make it any easier to recruit for his mod?

Jangiri

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« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2008, 12:02:08 AM »
i agree
it would be the worst thing if the btrl shot itself in the foot because half the team didn't want a canon storyline. plz share the coding and the models so these games can eventually come out.
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maya

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« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2008, 03:04:25 AM »
I have to say something here, If it wasnt for BtRL i would never have heard of FS, FS2, FS2 open or the SCP, so in that respect Enki is right.
 
Ive also been running a standalone server for BtRL and FS2 open using the 3.6.10 builds. Cant exactly do much with Diaspora atm.
 
Because of BtRL, GW, HLP and the SCP, modeling which is something i tried many years ago, with some success but was unable to fully realize due to time and cost of software, has been rekindled thanks to blender and im also registered on scifi meshes. So its viral, the beauty of the internet.
 
My point being, i may not have the brain powah to do any coding but i can contribute in many other ways like, testing builds, bug hunting, providing something to the comunity in the way of a host or simply by spreading the word, which i have to a 16 member corp in eve online.
 
So saying that someone is just filling a lurking role as theyre not contributing to a build fix simply because their not doing any coding is a bit ....well....wrong.
 
:yes: BtRL, Dispora & the SCP

Enki

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« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2008, 05:41:45 AM »
I don't think Mobius was saying lurkers because they aren't coding, he seems to think coders are small potatoes compared to the heavy-lifter FREDers: "coding a few to complement other people's work and FREDding a lot to run a mod and prevent its death".  I guess he forgets FREDers need coders and coders work is pointless without the FREDers and modelers and animators and sound folks...  Its symbiotic all the way around.

I think he really just believes there isn't any worthwhile new-blood of any modding kind due to BtRL and Diaspora. Pick your mouse back up, grab the latest update of Blender and get to work showing him wrong another way too!

Mobius

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« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2008, 06:35:13 PM »
What's the point in quoting my old HLP posts? They were my first reaction to the split and, therefore, don't represent my actual point of view.

You sound a bit pathetic. If you like to mention my activity on Diaspora's main forum then should do it properly by quoting both the "good" and the "bad" things. Check this out:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,56811.0.html

I volunteered to translate Diaspora and I'm already translating strings.tbl...as a Diaspora/BtRL hater I would have neved done that because it's surely going drain my already poor spare time. Your opinions about my activity on Diaspora aren't encouraging me.

I also have all the right to post my opinion. I wouldn't like two teams to create two Pegasus(or any other ship) models because it's a waste of time and resources - the two teams should definitely cooperate. With all due respect I wouldn't like to see two mod teams doing the same things while other mod teams(not necessarily the ones I work for) don't even have enough team members to release a demo.

I made my opinion public in the following thread, about the HTL Valkyrie:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,57476.0.html

About the coders I mentioned above - I simply said that, unlike you, they would have had all the rights to behave that way because their contributes to the FS community aren't considerable. They'd have all the rights to behave that way, not you.

In the FS Community you can't consider yourself a contributor unless you release something. Yours is a vague promise. Willing to help as a coder doesn't automatically make you a contributor. Are you aware of how many people start campaign and mod projects, hoping to provide the community with interesting stuff, and fail in their intent? I've experienced it myself.

About that part related to FREDders and coders all I can say is that you misunderstood me. I don't think FREDders are more important than coders, it's completely false because coders are the foundation of the FS community. All I said is that you behave like a super contributor with a lot of responsabilities while you're not: you task is to help the main SCP coders, not to run the SCP by yourself. The SCP is not in your hands and it'll probably never be so you're not on the same level of a FREDder who runs a mod almost solely by doing dozens and dozens of missions.

I really like the fact that FS TCs bring a lot of people to the forums, many of which might contribute in a serious way, but I don't like when they come and behave like you, Enki.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 06:42:43 PM by Mobius »

Enki

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« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2008, 07:24:05 PM »
Quote from: Mobius
You sound a bit pathetic. If you like to mention my activity on Diaspora's main forum then should do it properly by quoting both good and bad things... I also have all the right to post my opinion.


Yes you do have the right to post your opinion. You also get to live with your own words, that is part of the right to free speech.  

You take offering to translate for another mod to be saying nice things about it or BtRL? [first post link] It's is constructive, but it doesn't make your present point for you.  Or criticizing other modelers for the same things you criticize BtRL& Diaspora, duplication? [second post link].  I'm afraid that just does not make sense to me. Everyone is a volunteer, be happy we/they want to participate.

Go ahead and transfer your frustration onto me, even keep up the ad hom's. It's really helpful to everyone and I'm sure will help finish those mods you think the BSG mods and other interested fan modeling is hurting. :rolleyes:

Mobius

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« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2008, 08:04:22 PM »
Translation take a lot of time and offering to translate Diaspora. I'm not that active on GW and I'm not that familiar with the current BtRL team members so I didn't come out with a similar proposal here.

One more thing: let's assume that I hate BtRL&Diaspora. So? What are the devs going to do, ban me? There are many community members who don't like Inferno, the project I'm currently working on, and oftentimes make their opinion public. Nothing happens to them.

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« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2008, 11:56:27 PM »
To each his own opinion of course. I guess I'm trying to understand the circle that brought you over here to tell us you hypothetically didn't like us?
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