Author Topic: Hi/Weapons question.  (Read 4721 times)

Lt. Sage

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Hi/Weapons question.
« on: August 02, 2008, 06:59:49 PM »
Hello I just recently found this game while looking around for FS2 mods. I gotta say you guys are doing a nice job with it. I like the graphics.

I also have a few questions geared towards weaponry. Why put ammo on the main cannons so high? I never use more than 600 - 700 on the mission and it's an unrealistic amount of ammo for a ship so small to hold on it. It would be a giant flying powder keg.

Will there be new weapons? If so let me know if you need help with the science behind them in case you want to pull a FS1 and have a nice little speech and some details to make float around the weapon screens. It's my career to research such things anyways and I love to do it.

Okay last question here I promise :biggrin1:. Why are the guns so innacurate and overpowered? It takes around 90 - 140 shots on average to take out a ship but the problem with this is that the ship can take around 9 shots at most before blowing up. Also the cap ships can easily be blown up with the cannons alone and it hardly makes sense. It should at least take around 6000 - 8500 30mm cannon rounds to take out a cap ship (assuming the cap ship is frigate classed as larger ships would require missles to damage due to the thicker hulls of bigger classed ships the cannon round would bounce off) but as it stand it only takes about 500 to do the job.

Anyways hello and good game.

wiley

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 01:09:00 AM »
uh oh
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Ace

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 01:34:54 AM »
Quote from: Lt. Sage;105390
Hello I just recently found this game while looking around for FS2 mods. I gotta say you guys are doing a nice job with it. I like the graphics.

I also have a few questions geared towards weaponry. Why put ammo on the main cannons so high? I never use more than 600 - 700 on the mission and it's an unrealistic amount of ammo for a ship so small to hold on it. It would be a giant flying powder keg.

Considerations between realism (well for a scifi TV show where women can stick fiber-optics into their arms to hack computers and there's magical baby blood) and gameplay have to be kept in mind. For a "hardcore realism" mode extrapolating Viper weapon traits from actual aircraft, about 500 rounds per cannon is a good rule of thumb. The MK2 would have about 1000 rounds, while the MK7 would have about 1500.

A lot of players however in testing and upon release of the demo have had issues with ammo becoming depleted, which is why the current settings are about twice the ammunition amounts that the Vipers would have.

Quote from: Lt. Sage;105390
Okay last question here I promise :biggrin1:. Why are the guns so innacurate and overpowered? It takes around 90 - 140 shots on average to take out a ship but the problem with this is that the ship can take around 9 shots at most before blowing up. Also the cap ships can easily be blown up with the cannons alone and it hardly makes sense. It should at least take around 6000 - 8500 30mm cannon rounds to take out a cap ship (assuming the cap ship is frigate classed as larger ships would require missles to damage due to the thicker hulls of bigger classed ships the cannon round would bounce off) but as it stand it only takes about 500 to do the job.

The inaccuracy (and high ammo amounts to balance) were the result of trying to give the weapons a more rustic "naturalistic" feel in line with the setting.

Also, bear in mind that the Monarch isn't a capital ship. She's a civilian mining vessel. Most of the ships in the rag tag fleet are very vulnerable, just look at how easily the Olympic Carrier or Pyxis went down.

Real capital ships will be quite resistant to 30mm rounds. You're probably going to want to bring in the bigger guns... maybe... six times bigger?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 02:06:22 AM by Oddælan »
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Wolfy

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2008, 10:27:55 AM »
also for a real capital ship, chances are therl be quite alot of other ships helping you to take it down (note the amount of Raiders in Razor who engage the pegasus in the ambush at the shipyard)
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newman

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2008, 10:35:26 AM »
Quote from: Lt. Sage;105390
Okay last question here I promise :biggrin1:. Why are the guns so innacurate and overpowered? It takes around 90 - 140 shots on average to take out a ship but the problem with this is that the ship can take around 9 shots at most before blowing up. Also the cap ships can easily be blown up with the cannons alone and it hardly makes sense. It should at least take around 6000 - 8500 30mm cannon rounds to take out a cap ship (assuming the cap ship is frigate classed as larger ships would require missles to damage due to the thicker hulls of bigger classed ships the cannon round would bounce off) but as it stand it only takes about 500 to do the job.

Anyways hello and good game.

How did you come up with these numbers?
And no, I won't accept extrapolations, I want facts. Because this is scifi, and extrapolations based on comparison of today's guns mean squat. These are sci fi guns, they don't use powder, it's some sort of made up caseless railguns thing..
AND IT'S ALL MADE UP! THERE IS NO ACTUAL GUN!
So unless you have an orbital future gun testing center... you're assessing an impact a non existent, made up gun using non existent, made up ammo would have on a non existent, made up ship, made of non existent, made up material.
You don't wanna know how I think that sounds :)
So.. how did you come up with those numbers?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 10:42:33 AM by newman »

wiley

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2008, 01:49:28 PM »
With a slight tweak of the weapons table, not only can I destroy an enemy with one round I can blow him into the next galaxy.
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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 06:18:33 PM »
With a few tweaks you could arm a tribble with beam cannons for flatulence :D
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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 09:39:30 PM »
Quote from: Ace;105400

Also, bear in mind that the Monarch isn't a capital ship. She's a civilian mining vessel. Most of the ships in the rag tag fleet are very vulnerable, just look at how easily the Olympic Carrier or Pyxis went down.

Real capital ships will be quite resistant to 30mm rounds. You're probably going to want to bring in the bigger guns... maybe... six times bigger?


Agreed. There was a lot of debate over the power of the guns before and the Devs have reached a point of balance that makes the game enjoyable and still makes sense.
However the thing about the mining vessels is that they must be at least lightly armored due to the surroundings they work in, asteroid fields, as they run the risk of being hit by smaller rocks and should not be effected by that. The scene with the olympic carrier made sense, as not only was the ship have a thin hull but was also shot through the engine, which in turn blew up and started a reaction that devoured the whole ship. Besides the game now is fun, maybe with stronger asteroids (they can't take more than 3 hits before disentigrating) which is probably already done for the final release it is very enjoyable this way. Imagine having to hit the enemy 100 times before he goes down, the games would get very long and boring ;D. And with 1 shot kills like in the movie, we would need a revamped system for the weapons to keep the game fun, and a stray bullet from the enemy might just ruin your day.
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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 03:39:44 AM »
trust me ive had alot of problems with stray bullets in other games and is much better they way it is now especially if you fly like i do and shove yourself between your wing man and the enemy's six ;-D

Lt. Sage

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 01:10:37 AM »
Quote from: Ace;105400
Considerations between realism (well for a scifi TV show where women can stick fiber-optics into their arms to hack computers and there's magical baby blood) and gameplay have to be kept in mind. For a "hardcore realism" mode extrapolating Viper weapon traits from actual aircraft, about 500 rounds per cannon is a good rule of thumb. The MK2 would have about 1000 rounds, while the MK7 would have about 1500.

A lot of players however in testing and upon release of the demo have had issues with ammo becoming depleted, which is why the current settings are about twice the ammunition amounts that the Vipers would have.



The inaccuracy (and high ammo amounts to balance) were the result of trying to give the weapons a more rustic "naturalistic" feel in line with the setting.

Also, bear in mind that the Monarch isn't a capital ship. She's a civilian mining vessel. Most of the ships in the rag tag fleet are very vulnerable, just look at how easily the Olympic Carrier or Pyxis went down.

Real capital ships will be quite resistant to 30mm rounds. You're probably going to want to bring in the bigger guns... maybe... six times bigger?


I didn't mean to confuse you there. A better wording for my question is. Why make a gun have so many rounds and be so innaccurate when they can be made more accurate and need less rounds. Of course you answered it splendidly. I had no idea people were actually running out of ammo. I never seem to use more than 1000 for the few missions the demo has but I presume the testing is being done on maps that are as of yet unreleased.

To newman. I will need some time (as I just logged in and checked today) to get your response please stay tuned. I look forward to showing how a rail gun and other weapons like them work. I also look forward to showing you some other research data on how starships would actually need to be designed to use half of Sci Fi's weaponry.

Lt. Sage

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 01:11:38 AM »
Quote from: Ace;105400
Considerations between realism (well for a scifi TV show where women can stick fiber-optics into their arms to hack computers and there's magical baby blood) and gameplay have to be kept in mind. For a "hardcore realism" mode extrapolating Viper weapon traits from actual aircraft, about 500 rounds per cannon is a good rule of thumb. The MK2 would have about 1000 rounds, while the MK7 would have about 1500.

A lot of players however in testing and upon release of the demo have had issues with ammo becoming depleted, which is why the current settings are about twice the ammunition amounts that the Vipers would have.

The inaccuracy (and high ammo amounts to balance) were the result of trying to give the weapons a more rustic "naturalistic" feel in line with the setting.

Also, bear in mind that the Monarch isn't a capital ship. She's a civilian mining vessel. Most of the ships in the rag tag fleet are very vulnerable, just look at how easily the Olympic Carrier or Pyxis went down.

Real capital ships will be quite resistant to 30mm rounds. You're probably going to want to bring in the bigger guns... maybe... six times bigger?


I didn't mean to confuse you there. A better wording for my question is. Why make a gun have so many rounds and be so innaccurate when they can be made more accurate and need less rounds. Of course you answered it splendidly. I had no idea people were actually running out of ammo. I never seem to use more than 1000 for the few missions the demo has but I presume the testing is being done on maps that are as of yet unreleased.

To newman. I will need some time (as I just logged in and checked today) to get your response please stay tuned. I look forward to showing how a rail gun and other weapons like them work. I also look forward to showing you some other research data on how starships would actually need to be designed to use half of Sci Fi's weaponry. Most of which is just based on real research.

Enki

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2008, 03:59:03 AM »
Quote from: Lt. Sage;105466
I didn't mean to confuse you there. A better wording for my question is. Why make a gun have so many rounds and be so innaccurate when they can be made more accurate and need less rounds. Of course you answered it splendidly. I had no idea people were actually running out of ammo. I never seem to use more than 1000 for the few missions the demo has but I presume the testing is being done on maps that are as of yet unreleased.

To newman. I will need some time (as I just logged in and checked today) to get your response please stay tuned. I look forward to showing how a rail gun and other weapons like them work. I also look forward to showing you some other research data on how starships would actually need to be designed to use half of Sci Fi's weaponry. Most of which is just based on real research.


I wouldn't put too much specificity into extrapolations of current real world weaponology when projecting weapons weilded by a civilization that has FTL drives, control over gravity and tylium fuel.  Our current state of physics knowledge is totally inadequate to deal with the energy densities which would be necessary to pull off any of those things.  And with those energy densities the propellant-to-throw weights are all screwed up to the point of you would just need to pull figures out your ass.  

Don't bet too heavily on rail guns either. As much as that is an unsettled question as far as canon goes, railguns have no muzzle flash in vacuum since here is no superheated gas to be pushed out of the way as the slug travels down the rails, and there is plenty of in-show muzzle flash.

And OBTW, the guns aren't inaccurate.  They have a close convergence of about 150m. Outside that you are just throwing rounds away from the target.  More than 300m and you are either a real good deflection shooter or you just plain miss.  Surprising that a "weapons expert" would miss something as simple as that.  :p

Josh_88

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2008, 04:08:07 AM »
Enki is dead on as usual, with more then one gun, to hit a target they dont fire straight, the need that convergance point, so once they hit this point, if there isnt a target there they keep going on their trajectories and.... unconverge. lol
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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 12:03:53 AM »
Whether the guns are railguns or not... THEY LOOK DAMN GOOD:lol:! Really if the blasts were not there it would have had an impact on the 'awesomeness' of galactica firing flak and HE shells in battles. Also it can be passed off with the sound in space issue, that it's just there for the show and to look cool :biggrin1:.

However as I mentioned a really long time ago but just remembered now: With the introduction of capital ships into the battle in the final release, the dynamics of the game can be warped completely. We see in the show that in defending the fleet, Vipers often run dry and begin "throwing rocks" at the enemy and need a reload. Therefor with Galactica and Pegasus's hanger bays open whenever someone notices their ammo is low, they can high tail it back to base, reload, get some quick patches on (so a small increase in health or variable change depending on the case, as after being damaged you can only recover a certain percent back). This would really add a whole new feeling to the game, so you have to be careful not to run dry too far from base and it would simulate the situations in the show and make the game more fun (i dunno about others but I wouldn't mind having a base to fall back to, or chasing a guy with no ammo all the way home! :D)
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Enki

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Hi/Weapons question.
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 03:08:13 AM »
I likes that idea.

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