Author Topic: ship classes  (Read 27722 times)

SFM Hobbes

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« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2008, 04:20:45 PM »
I would agree with Kara. We're only likely to find older-style support ships, possibly refitted, if any are left in service by this time.  It would be favourable to instead fund the operation of a fewer number of battlestars, and even many of these were becoming smaller and more specialized.

Barid Bel Medar

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« Reply #76 on: May 29, 2008, 04:26:06 PM »
that remids me, have we had any word on what a Battlestar Group actually consists of?
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Foundry

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« Reply #77 on: May 29, 2008, 04:35:27 PM »
RDM says it's supposedly based on a Carrier Battle Group. That's all we've got. Either it's a single Battlestar with a bunch of support ships, a group of multiple Battlestars, or a single Battlestar serving as a flagship of a bunch of smaller warships. We've got no idea.

Enki

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« Reply #78 on: May 29, 2008, 06:00:27 PM »
Who knows, especially since the term was made up AFTER primary filming for the miniseries.  

Seems the Art department put BSG on the BSG-75 insignia when they were supposed to have just put BS-75.  Since it was already on the patches and background in film, RDM approved of a made up Battlestar "Group" term to cover the gaffe.  His blog comments on being similar to a carrier battle group came well after that.

Barid Bel Medar

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« Reply #79 on: May 29, 2008, 06:04:48 PM »
Quote from: Foundry;101421
RDM says it's supposedly based on a Carrier Battle Group. That's all we've got. Either it's a single Battlestar with a bunch of support ships, a group of multiple Battlestars, or a single Battlestar serving as a flagship of a bunch of smaller warships. We've got no idea.


Hem, he might be confused on that.  Since the term is now Carrier Strike Group, and Carrier Air Wing.  Lets consider what they have, 2 Tico's, 3 Burkes, 2 Strike Subs, 1 Carrier, 1 Carrier Air wing, and 1 Tender.

Examining the Air Wing Squadrons, we have 3 Fighter and 1 Attack, 1 lift, 1 AWAC, 1 Sub Hunter, 1 Electronic Warfare.

So, lets translate that into BSG equivalents…

Galactica has:  Raptors, Vipers, (room for 80 fighters?  How many Raptors?) several point defense guns, several (I think 12 dual over/under) main guns, several missile launch silos.  Again, how many on each?

Now, judging the size of the nukes seen over the algae planet, I personally estimate between 5 Kilotons and 2.3 megatons.  Then there’s the potential for tactical nukes, which sadly we’ve yet to see in colonial hands :(.  Those ship launched missiles look ICBM quality to me, so I supect they are pretty damn potent.  So, we have the “Horizon Warfare” capability of “Escorts”, the fighter capability of a carrier, the lift ability of a carrier, I swear they have a MEU on there too, with the rate Marines die and are replaced, so lets add that one just for kickers, and as for logistics, the damn clunker was built to be tender in her own right.  The whole sub screen becomes moot.

In my estimation, again this is me theorizing on what little BSG info I have at my disposal, a battlestar is meant NOT to have the escorts.  So, taking that a step further, here’s what I suspect a Battlestar Group is:  1 Battlestar and it support craft (all internal).  I also suspect that the squadrons are seperated in to Fighter/Attack, Bomber, Lift, and Early Warning/EA/ED.  Again, my personal estimation is a BSG consiting of 4 Fighter Squadrons, 1 Bomber Squadron, 2 Lift squadrons, and 1 EWAR squadron, each at 8-12 air craft.

Of course, considering the nature of space warfare, (and if you want a damn fine feel for it, play Eve Online,) with that much area, you need to split up resources.  As the Guide says: space is BIG.  So, you need a recon element, a central element, and home base for logistic support.  A battlestar carries Raptors, which presumably fill for early warning and electronic warfare support to the fighter squadrons.  By combining multiple Battlestars under the command of one admiral, you can extend your eyes and ears by increasing the overall presence.  I suspect that it is most feasible to project the early warning in a 8 point sphere around the battlestar, thus the supportable distance is increased by creating an overlap of battlestars.

The other reason I personally suspect a battlestar group is several battlestars is partitioning.  Carrier Strike Group stays at its distance, while the destroyers close the gap and hang out in the shallows.  Thus, one battlestar stays back, one goes to point A, one goes to point B, and as such.  Of course, maybe I’m just over complicating things.  That’s also possible.  But here’s how I like to see it:  120 Battlestars is a lot.  Conservatively, that’s 120 CAWs, 10,000 air craft, 120 MEU’s, 1200 City-killer nukes, and millions of rounds of ammunition.  That’s some hefty frakkin firepower.  
If I were to conduct a war, I’d want ships at a rally point, as well as ships deployed to forward areas.  Lets give a hypothetical based on our own neighborhood.  Earth is our homeworld, so we’d want a formidable defense.  So, there’s some ships accounted for.  I’d want to defend the major mineral resources of the home systems, so that’s a small detachment at Mars, a detachment at Jupiter, and given the liability of the Belt, I’d want patrols in there, too.  
Now let us assume we have FTL, which means I’d want defenses for the interim territory, as well as out laying systems.  Ok, the numbers are now just rolling up, as each increase in space covered is an increase in needed material, and an organizational hazard (as any tincan can attest, the distance between the Pickets and CSG is a pain to keep secure.  So we send ships out to our stellar neighbors.  These systems should be locked down, and it is prudent to place supplies at those rally points, so our invest increases.
Estimated, that’s group at earth, a group at mars, a group at Venus, a group at Jupiter, a group at the belt, a group at Uranus, and several groups deployed ”abroad”.   So lets examine the battlestar universe.  Defense for the big 12 Colonies, as well as their off shoots, exploratory defenses, as well as pickets for little flair ups, defense for shipping between systems, active defense (a nice way to say attacking the pirates…), and how much area and liabity in between.  To keep logistics easy, you want every major juncture to have a manager, and we have that demonstrated in BSG with the fleet yards and Razor’s little battle in the first war.
So, the Battlestar has a commander for its affairs, which are multi-lateral in that the commander has command over the air wing (which in the USN reports more to the admiral than ship captain), as well as the marines.  That battlestar is then responsible to his group admiral, (and since RDM was a tincan, he has probably seen a destroyer’s Squadron Badge, which lists the ship’s name and squadron.  The Ship’s Heraldry is usually located Above and to the right, with a plaque listing the ships commander, XO, and CMC or LCPO’s above and to the right.  They can also be found located on the ship’s staff below the National Ensign.  Some anal retention for those of you who care.)
So, you send someone to the “Etna” system with three or four battle stars to root out the pirates.  One battle star engages the pirate’s home base, two more scour the system, and the fourth, and probably the Flagship maintains a central point of security in the event things go bad.  Said pattern allows for the whole system to be locked down, as well as a rally point to be set up for damaged ships to gather at.  Granted, such an investiture of resources is a bit over extensive.  But you get the point, each battle star is independent but the structure allows for each ship to know what the others are doing, and for them to link up and pool if need be.

Feel free to pick my thoughts apart guys.  I’m just laying my thoughts at the time out there, since we have been denied some real canon on fleet organizational structure and the grouping of battlestars.  Perhaps there are BSG’s and BSF’s (fleets?)?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 06:14:25 PM by Barid Bel Medar »
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Wolfy

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« Reply #80 on: May 29, 2008, 06:27:34 PM »
Quote from: Foundry;101417
What you've said kara is more or less what the Royal Navy is doing. They're downsizing on most of the Destroyers and Frigates AFAIK but they're pretty much justifying that with the new Queen Elizabeth class carriers and the Astute class submarines.


To be honest, the Royal Navy is down sizeing everything.

There weill be less Astute submarines thn the amount there replaceing. I dont think therel be as many Type 45's as the 42's there replaceing. We're already gone from 3 carriers to 2, but the 3rd can be easilly recomissioned given an emergency, and where onl getting 2 new carriers to replace the 2 remaining ones

haveing said that, the amount of aircraft on the carriers will be twice as much as curently. so at the moment its either 40 aircraft
 between the 2 carriers, on the new carriers its 40 each, so twice as many aircraft.

We seem to be relying on aircraft more...
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Barid Bel Medar

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« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2008, 06:29:24 PM »
Quote from: Enki;101353
Well speed is important, but it's relative speed that counts rather than the absolute speed.  Acceleration would be a component of that.

RDM has said in his blog he would imagine that there were other smaller types of ships for specific tasks.  That only makes sense.  What those tasks are and how they would play in large scale combat are left totally to our imaginations.  Beyond that, until we see one in the show, we can assume it is canon that they were all destroyed via the CNP back door trick and follow-up attacks.

BtRL and BtRL fans should just let those go for now, and let those folks outside the team play with that concept to their hearts content.  Then new fan ideas can be subject to community scrutiny and voting by how many 3rd party FRED missions use them.  This game will have legs and those who fell strongly enough about their ideas will have plenty of time to test them out to their hearts content.


I for one have several chapters worth of material that involves noting but Battlestars, since I cant for the life of me find something they dont do well, except heavy landing, but I suspect those were two types of ships normally ON a battlestar that just werent present on Bucket or Beast, do to maintenance and stand down.

On the flip side, the idea's I have work because the principle is only a few isolated, damaged, more than half dead pockets survived, with no real command structure left.

what I want to know is how many basestars the cylon's maintained?
Contrary to popular belief, the nuclear testing of the 60\'s was actually an effort to tan Kieth Richards

At the end of the universe, there will be only a luke warm and Kieth Richards

in a fight between Kieth Richards and Chuck Norris, Kieth will snort a line Chuck.

Barid Bel Medar

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« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2008, 06:36:11 PM »
Quote from: Wolfy;101431
To be honest, the Royal Navy is down sizeing everything.

There weill be less Astute submarines thn the amount there replaceing. I dont think therel be as many Type 45's as the 42's there replaceing. We're already gone from 3 carriers to 2, but the 3rd can be easilly recomissioned given an emergency, and where onl getting 2 new carriers to replace the 2 remaining ones

haveing said that, the amount of aircraft on the carriers will be twice as much as curently. so at the moment its either 40 aircraft
 between the 2 carriers, on the new carriers its 40 each, so twice as many aircraft.

We seem to be relying on aircraft more...


Yeah, the USN is going in largely the same direction, but I think overall its an improvement.  the Burke is about the same maintenance cost of a Spruance, and twice the capability.  Granted, all the Sprus are out now.  the Carriers are another thing I'm not sold on.  True, the Air Force has some real issues getting ground support right, but the destroyers now carry a heavier support role with thier Missile Package.

as for carriers, I'm not impressed with the performance of the newer Clunkers, since they seem to spend more time in refit than at sea.  course, that may just be my prejudice...
Contrary to popular belief, the nuclear testing of the 60\'s was actually an effort to tan Kieth Richards

At the end of the universe, there will be only a luke warm and Kieth Richards

in a fight between Kieth Richards and Chuck Norris, Kieth will snort a line Chuck.

Foundry

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« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2008, 08:25:15 PM »
Quote from: Barid Bel Medar;101428
Hem, he might be confused on that.  Since the term is now Carrier Strike Group, and Carrier Air Wing.  Lets consider what they have, 2 Tico's, 3 Burkes, 2 Strike Subs, 1 Carrier, 1 Carrier Air wing, and 1 Tender.


Aww man, Carrier Battle Group sounds way cooler. I hate how militaries for some reason feel the need to sensitise their names. The US used to have the Department of War. The UK used to have the War Office. Now it's DoD and MoD! An organisation that kills people for a living doesn't need a PC name!

I'm tired so I'll let someone else hack up that large post.

Enki

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« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2008, 12:10:39 AM »
Quote from: Barid Bel Medar;101428

Now, judging the size of the nukes seen over the algae planet, I personally estimate between 5 Kilotons and 2.3 megatons.  Then there’s the potential for tactical nukes, which sadly we’ve yet to see in colonial hands :(.  Those ship launched missiles look ICBM quality to me, so I supect they are pretty damn potent.  

Feel free to pick my thoughts apart guys.  I’m just laying my thoughts at the time out there, since we have been denied some real canon on fleet organizational structure and the grouping of battlestars.  Perhaps there are BSG’s and BSF’s (fleets?)?

I like how you hedge. "between 5 Kilotons and 2.3 megatons"  :lol:  Only a factor of ~500! :lol:  Personally I think the ship to ground nucs would be on the order of 50MT city busters, but that doesn't really matter. As for tactical nucs, we have seen those or at least the warhead.  Gina blew up Cloud Nine with the one Adama lent Baltar for his Cylon detector.

The rest is quite reasonable, although I wouldn't get wrapped around the CVBG/CSG difference.  That was literally an astute O-7's play to expand his commands realm of influence and make a quick jump to O-9.  It worked. :)  While I wasn't in the room when the idea was informally floated to Third Fleet and VCNO, I was tasked with visually smoothing the slideset for the follow-on presentations.

In defense of the idea there was more than a little concern over CVBG/ARG compatibility and ARG training at the time. But the names were purely to make CSG and ESG look sexy on a slide together and deflect the ARG bubbas protestations that their name was being changed since CVBG was going away too.  But CSG was just CVBG with a new name.

Quote from: Barid Bel Medar;101433
I for one have several chapters worth of material that involves noting but Battlestars, since I cant for the life of me find something they dont do well, except heavy landing, but I suspect those were two types of ships normally ON a battlestar that just werent present on Bucket or Beast, do to maintenance and stand down.

On the flip side, the idea's I have work because the principle is only a few isolated, damaged, more than half dead pockets survived, with no real command structure left.

what I want to know is how many basestars the cylon's maintained?

I happen to agree with you that the fleet would likely be just battlestars, but I am overruled by RDMs own statements so I just grit my teeth and accept it.  Don't ask about the pain of accepting a single system for the Colonies though.  That is too great so I just try to ignore the whole concept.

Quote from: Foundry;101448
Aww man, Carrier Battle Group sounds way cooler. I hate how militaries for some reason feel the need to sensitise their names. The US used to have the Department of War. The UK used to have the War Office. Now it's DoD and MoD! An organisation that kills people for a living doesn't need a PC name!
Not a PC name my friend, just the different name you whisper in another mans ear as you rip out his life force, err... take away his toys with dad's permission. Also at the time of the name change "Strike" was considered the sexy name for communicating a unit that takes combat to the enemy, rather than just fighting in place.  "Strike" showed up damn near everywhere in new names for awhile.

Quote
I'm tired so I'll let someone else hack up that large post.

That's probably not gonna happen, or if someone tries they are gonna have an awful hard time of it.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 12:30:25 AM by Enki »

Enki

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« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2008, 12:39:53 AM »
Quote from: Barid Bel Medar;101436
Yeah, the USN is going in largely the same direction, but I think overall its an improvement.  the Burke is about the same maintenance cost of a Spruance, and twice the capability.  Granted, all the Sprus are out now.  the Carriers are another thing I'm not sold on.  True, the Air Force has some real issues getting ground support right, but the destroyers now carry a heavier support role with thier Missile Package.

as for carriers, I'm not impressed with the performance of the newer Clunkers, since they seem to spend more time in refit than at sea.  course, that may just be my prejudice...

Zoomies don't want to do air support, unless they are Warthog drivers.  That's the main problem there.  Airwing bubbas are getting pretty damn good at it now since that's almost all of what they have been doing for the past 5 years.  

And yes, the Boats have been having yard issues.  A big problem is that they are amongst the biggest most complex machines on the planet and upgrading stuff is a poorly understood science with lots of unplanned consequences and just flat out piss-poor non-componentized designs. The basic design hasn't changed since Nimitz so everything that is done now is based off decisions that were made in the early '60s.  That leads to change Widget A and find out Widget B no longer works as advertised.  Now chain that ad nauseum.

Arsenal

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« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2008, 01:15:44 AM »
I'd have thought that there would be some small escorts for Battlestars.  The Pegasus and Glalactica both have almost no point defense or artillery in their rear arc.  I'd want a small 'destroyer' with flak autocannons and a 'frigate' with some heavy artillery covering a Battlestars rear from fighters, missiles and faster capital ships.

http://s92.photobucket.com/albums/l9/TonyG2_2006/Berzerk%20Class%20Escort%20Ship/

3 images of the Berzerk class escort I found by googling if anyone is interested.  There are more shots, including orthogrpahics, on Sci Fi Meshes.  Just search for Berzerk class escort.

Quote from: Wolfy;101431
To be honest, the Royal Navy is down sizeing everything...

...We're already gone from 3 carriers to 2, but the 3rd can be easilly recomissioned given an emergency, and where onl getting 2 new carriers to replace the 2 remaining ones



From what I know of the RN we've never had 3 midget carriers on the go at a time, one has always been mothballed to reduce costs, so it won't really change anything.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 01:19:46 AM by Arsenal »
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Enki

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« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2008, 01:51:59 AM »
The Berzerk mesh was pitched as concept art for the re-imagined series and a version was eventually used as one of the victims in Scorpion Shipyards. We don't know how RDM intended it to be used if that was even discussed at all.  It could just be there as eye-fluff so not everything was Galactica/Peggy/Valkyrie.  

I do consider it slightly telling though that there wasn't anything that looked like an escort in Scorpion shipyards, despite what RDM said a few years earlier about imagining there were escorts. There are just a few REALLY BIG ships and some really small things that looked that looked like utility vessels/space-taxis.

Barid Bel Medar

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« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2008, 04:11:23 AM »
where is it canon that all 12 are in the same solor system, or is the Battlestar 40,000 where some are hive cities, too?
Contrary to popular belief, the nuclear testing of the 60\'s was actually an effort to tan Kieth Richards

At the end of the universe, there will be only a luke warm and Kieth Richards

in a fight between Kieth Richards and Chuck Norris, Kieth will snort a line Chuck.

newman

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« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2008, 07:50:28 AM »
That all 12 colonies are in the same system? It's been more hinted then said, several times.