Author Topic: It's the Patch!  (Read 72241 times)

VatTas

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It's the Patch!
« Reply #150 on: November 15, 2007, 09:10:31 AM »
Quote from: Angelus;84198
Nothings wrong, 'cause inherit your ships velocity means :
the faster you fly, the faster the bullets are.

If you move sideways like you described, the KEWs should be seen as a arc, has to do something with physics...

Actually, "inherit velocity" means more than that. If you go sideways, bullets that you shoot also have the same sideways velocity. If you're moving forward at 10m/s, and sideways at constant speed of 2m/s and shoot a bullet with 400m/s, bullet will travel at foward velocity 410m/s and side velocity 2m/s. If you fire stream of bullets, you won't see an arc. You will see ALL bullets traveling straight away from you.
You will see an arc, if your ship is accelerating sideways or turning.
Quote from: Turey;84202
The crosshair adjusts for your movement. As such, if you fire just before your crosshair leaves the asteroid, it should hit.

I think that you meant "lead indicator". Crosshair doesn't adjust, it sits motionlessly in the center of the screen.
This time with pictures and colors ;)
At time t0 your ship (black rectangle) is moving sideways at constant velocity, its line of sight (red line) is aligned with asteroid (brown thing). You fire bullet (green thing). At time t1 you ship has moved to the side some distance, bullet has moved the same distance to the side and some distance away from you. So, you still see the bullet in the dead center of the screen, it is just getting more and more distant. And of course it misses the asteroid.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 09:23:25 AM by VatTas »

Turey

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It's the Patch!
« Reply #151 on: November 15, 2007, 06:49:20 PM »
The Colonial KEW moves at 1500m/s. Dunno if you can move sideways enough before it hits.
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Get FreeSpace Open here.
what kind of fucking 11 y.o. wannabe leet hacker made that unbelievable stupid, kiddish, awkward and whatsoever socalled \'updater\', which made me laugh at first and then cry and cry .. and now I wish to kill someone\'s parents [and then kill myself, ofcourse]. Any clue?
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VatTas

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« Reply #152 on: November 16, 2007, 11:45:14 AM »
Why don't you try it yourself?
Target asteroid that's little less than 3000m away (so you'll have ~2sec until it hits). Start moving sideways and fire just before crosshair leaves asteroid. When you see the flash, you crosshair points waaay away from asteroid. And that's where your bullet should have been, if it had inherited ship's velocity.
I thought, illustration was good enough...

You stated that "bullets inherit ship's velocity". I found that it is not true. So, it's a bug. If you'll say "we haven't intended it to inherit all vectors of velocity, only forward vector, so it's not a bug" or something like this, I'll say "Ok, so it's not a bug, it's a feature ;)".

Believe me, if I say that it is incorrect physical behavior, it's true. My interest in astronomy started ~24 years ago, when I was 8, so I have some knowledge how thing are supposed to behave in space ;)

Hm, maybe I can PM directly the guy who coded this?

Sorry that I cannot help with coding myself :blah:

Turey

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It's the Patch!
« Reply #153 on: November 16, 2007, 10:05:57 PM »
Quote from: VatTas;84305

Hm, maybe I can PM directly the guy who coded this?


That would be me. I'm kinda busy, but I might be able to look into this on the weekend.

It SHOULD be inheriting all velocity...
"fighting for the survival of humanity is supposed to be hard." - Josh_88
Get FreeSpace Open here.
what kind of fucking 11 y.o. wannabe leet hacker made that unbelievable stupid, kiddish, awkward and whatsoever socalled \'updater\', which made me laugh at first and then cry and cry .. and now I wish to kill someone\'s parents [and then kill myself, ofcourse]. Any clue?
        Hello! That would be me.

Herra Tohtori

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It's the Patch!
« Reply #154 on: November 17, 2007, 12:20:36 AM »
Quote from: Turey;84332
It SHOULD be inheriting all velocity...



It is. I tested. If you're flying at constant speed and have constant attitude, the rounds do fly straight away from you - and they hit the asteroid when it passes the line. And assuming you have constant velocity and attitude (ie. don't use any thrusters during the firing, that point is dead ahead all right.

If you're only starting to move sideways when you start firing (or otherwise use thrusters during firing), obviously the acceleration will take you away from the line of the first shots. Perhaps that's what's happening? Because I can't seem to notice any flaws in vector inheritance on the patched version of the game.

Or perhaps your patch is botched, VatTas? :nervous:


meleardil

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« Reply #155 on: November 17, 2007, 09:24:17 AM »
I tested it too...constant speed is inherited as it should be, both in normal and glide mode.. Mr Gallilei can be satisfied, his laws are kept. Thank you Turey!
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KaraBulut

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« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2007, 09:16:55 AM »
Just basic physics nugget :p
« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 11:19:16 AM by KaraBulut »

VatTas

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It's the Patch!
« Reply #157 on: November 19, 2007, 09:25:48 AM »
OK, maybe my patch is corrupt.
To verify this, here are some screenshots:
01_stationary_firing - not moving, firing, shots go where crosshair points.
02_moving_at70 - moving right at constant speed. Crosshair just about to pass asteroid.
03_moving_at70_firing - at the same side speed, firing. Notice, shots drag behind. If rounds have inherited sideways motion, picture should have been as in 01_stationary_firing.
04_moving_at70_shots_hit - rounds hit the asteroid. Again, if velocity was inherited, rounds should have been where crosshair points.

(REMOVED PICTURES TO SAVE FORUM SPACE, since problem is solved)

So, guys, if you see different picture (i.e. don't see the shots dragging behind while moving sideways), my patch is corrupt. If you see the same, it's a bug.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 11:41:33 AM by VatTas »

Herra Tohtori

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« Reply #158 on: November 19, 2007, 10:24:21 AM »
What missions are those shots from?

I recently noticed similar behaviour in 3rd party campaigns, and while getting to the roots of the problem, Turey pointed me to the knowledge that the way the rounds behave (whether or not they inherit the ship's vector) depends on the AI profiles used in the mission, not just how the feature is coded in the game engine.

BtRL's ai_profiles.tbl table file offers three choices, SINGLE, MULTI and BOAL, which are the options to be used in the BtRL missions. However, FRED2 defaults to AI profile named FS2 RETAIL, which means that if the mission designer doesn't remember to make the mission use one of the three BtRL profiles, the end result is that the mission will use FS2 Retail weapon behaviour, ie. no vector inheritance.

This means that if that's a self-made or 3rd party add-on mission, you should check what AI profile it's set to use. Search for the entry $AI Profile: in the mission file.

The missions provided with the patch should naturally be using correct profiles, so if you find the official missions - be it single or multiplayer mission - having incorrect behaviour, that's a bug in that mission.


VatTas

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« Reply #159 on: November 19, 2007, 11:39:46 AM »
Quote from: Herra Tohtori;84568
What missions are those shots from?
......
The missions provided with the patch should naturally be using correct profiles, so if you find the official missions - be it single or multiplayer mission - having incorrect behaviour, that's a bug in that mission.


OK, that solves the problem. Now everything is perfect (changed $AI Profile to SINGLE).

Mission was Scar Duo.
Damn weaponless Scars were crashing into my ship while I was testing. So I removed them altogether :D

VatTas

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« Reply #160 on: November 20, 2007, 09:12:38 AM »
OK, here is another issue. Seems that lead indicator is not working correctly when you are using thrusters. This time I tested with Scar Duo and Demo Campaign missions so there's probably nothing mission-related.
Easiest to test with asteroids again. Choose distant asteroid and target it. Start using thrusters and fire at the lead indicator. The shots will miss 100%

Herra Tohtori

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« Reply #161 on: November 20, 2007, 10:56:30 AM »
I have noticed that the lead indicator isn't quite up to the task as soon as sideways velocities grow to larger scales. This doesn't only concern glide mode, but also situations where you follow another fighter, and engage side thrust to get out of the rear sector of the enemy (because the target profile is actually smallest from there) so that you can hit Raiders from up or below, or Vipers from any of the sides.

Surprizingly, it's actually rather easy to hit the target when you simply point at it with crosshair and adjust speed with thrusters so that it stays on the center of the screen without attitude adjustments, and don't pay much attention to the lead indicator at all. I've started to use it as more of a range indicator than actual lead assist indicator, and just correct the aim along the way. However, it's still useful when you're not doing any fancy maneuvers with the horizontal and vertical thrusters.

I also think I know where it goes wrong. I think the lead indicator points to the direction where the vectors of the round and the target would meet (at same time), and it seems at least to me that the lead indicator system doesn't take into account that the rounds actually gain the vector of the firing ship.

At least that's the only sensible explanation I can think of. Especially as in the earlier version the lead indicator was accurate even in glide mode, you could easily test it by shooting asteroids from ~500 m/s speeds, and it actually worked then.

If the lead indicator code should already include the inherited vector in the lead projection, then I suppose it should be re-checked because it ain't working as intended.:blah::)


Felix 039

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« Reply #162 on: November 22, 2007, 03:48:47 AM »
What's Stopping the Mac Patch from coming out. >: (
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Josh_88

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« Reply #163 on: November 22, 2007, 05:21:11 AM »
real life issues and other issues of more importance for the guy who knows how do to it for the mac. Taylor (I think he's doing it) is a busy guy

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It's the Patch!
« Reply #164 on: November 30, 2007, 06:50:30 AM »
Apologies for the super late post about this as I only just installed the patch recently (which for the most part I love)...

But ever since installing it, when I try to get into multiplayer, the game completely crashes (windows forces it to shut down)...

I didn't see anyone else who had this problem in this thread unfortunately...

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