Author Topic: Differences of Viper MkII and VII  (Read 23999 times)

The Saint

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« on: April 04, 2007, 06:23:55 PM »
Hi everyone. First time poster, 'longer' time lurker. I was just wondering how the differences between the Viper MkII and MkVII was decided upon, because they seem a bit odd to me. This isn't a complain about the absofrackkin'lutely awesome demo (terrific job, devs, this is the best demo I've played in ages :yes:), more of a point of discussion for whatever comes next. For those who want the differences qualified, the demo's tech page (IIRC) gives them as.

MkII
Manoeuvrability: High
Armour: Low
Speed: 140

MkVII
Manoeuvrability: Med
Armour: High
Speed: 200

This might just be me, but I usually associate high speed and high agility with aircraft of greater technological sophistication, compact profile and low volume (MkVII). At the same time, I expect a fighter intentially build simple/"dumb" to handle comparatively less well but also far more resistant to damage (MkII looks bulkier and more rigid, to boot).

Reading the briefing for the training mission and data on the techpage, I can't help but notice the rather extensive bit about the MkVII's performance being generally nerfed by the removal of the compromised CNP. For those of you who forgot, the Command Navigation Program was what allowed the Cylons to remotely disable Colonial naval units. I really hope that the removal of the CNP is not the sole basis for balancing the MkVII to be less manoeuvrable than the MkII. It's worth pointing out that that particular notion (MkVII - CNP = nerfed) has no real basis in canon. Yeah, I know, bringing in canonacy can be akin to dropping Hitler on a discussion, but hear me out.

I think we can all agree that the MkVII would fill the agile/light for the purpose of balancing, even if only on aesthetics grounds. Along the same lines, the MkII and her looks would fill the tough/heavy/fast? role much better. So correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason I can see for the Vipers stat'd the way they are right now in the demo seem to be over the CNP issue. IIRC, the "MkVII - CNP = nerfed" idea originated with Sci-Fi Channel's website as a blurb their tech page (I can no longer find it), apparently for the purpose of telling everyone how awesome Starbuck and Apollo are for flying them. According to Sci-Fi Channel, IIRC, the MkVIIs weren't just stripped of the CNP, but also had its avionics hardware downgraded to less-than-MkVII stuff.

However, no where in the show did it ever state that removing the CNP has ever impacted MkVII performance, much less that they had their hardware replaced. It's implied in the show that the MkVII has been around longer than the CNP, with CNP being something "new" while the MkVII is representative of essentially all Colonial airwing (from Beast to Bucket), meaning thousands of airframes and many years of production. We've seen plenty of people flying them who aren't experienced pilots (Hot Dog comes to mind) and plenty of experienced pilots flying MkII when MkVII are being flown by lesser pilots. Lesser pilots defined by the show as not (groan) Starbuck, (ugh) Kat or (maybe) Apollo. There's actually a whole discussion over this in Battlestarwiki's discussion page on the MkVII, though the site is currently down for update. One will notice that the Battlestarwiki no longer speaks of MkVII as being nerfed by the removal of the CNP, at least not since the last time I checked the page. :nervous:

In essence, the "MkVII - CNP = nerfed" is plain misleading at best, fanwankery by Sci-Fi Channel at worst. With no basis in seriereality (......canonacy), it reduces the most agile looking Viper to 2nd best and turns the toughest looking Viper into an uninsured glass house. Don't get me wrong, I love the demo, it's just that the geek purist in me would like a super agile MkVII and super tough MkII for the final, the way the show intended. :p

I hope I don't sound like I'm nagging about balance and canonacy so shortly after the demo's release. I just want to engage the devs in what I believe to be a meaningful issue for things that come later. ;)

Angreifer

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 06:28:47 PM »
To me, the Mk VII looks beefier than the Mk II; it has three cannons for frak's sake. It's also a newer model than the Mk II, therefore can be expected to have larger, better engines, hence a higher velocity. To keep those aspects and maintain game balance, giving it only a moderate agility and heavier armor seems to make the most sense. I think the Devs hit the nail on the head when it comes to the Mk II and VII, and I sincerely hope they maintain the performance stats for those two birds.

EDIT: The only thing I'd possibly want to see changed is a speed increase for the Mk II to make up for the lack of armor. The Raider is faster and has heavier armor, as does the Mk VII. The Mk II only has its agility and profile to its advantage; bump the speed up to 170, and I think it'll fit its niche even better.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 06:32:34 PM by Angreifer »

M-562

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 06:37:57 PM »
nah, i think more armor too.

although I am a colonial, i prefer to fly the raider. this is because its better balanced, nice speed reasonable armor and quite good maneuvrabilty.
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StarSlayer

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 06:46:42 PM »
The Mk VII is a bigger fighter then the MK II, and as a general rule bigger faster fighters turn slower then smaller fighters (you wouldn't expect a F-14 to cut inside a F-16's loop).  Calling it an inferior fighter because its not as maneuvrable isn't exactly accurate, you wouldn't after all get into a turn and burn with Zeros if your flying a P-38 would you?  Flown properly the MK VII becomes down right deadly, you just need to know her strengths.
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Unknown Target

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 06:57:40 PM »
The Mk VII, realistically, should be better than the Mk 2 in pretty much every area. It's newer, so it should have more advanced, well, everything. Of course, if you had a ship that was faster, more maneuverable, and had better armor/armament, there wouldn't be much incentive to chose the other one, would there? :)

The way I look at it, the Mk VII is beefier, and is designed more as an interceptor - launch fast, get to the target area as rapidly as possible, and do zooming attacks against the enemy, or stand off and fire missiles from a distance, while the Mk II was back in the day when the gun was king, and it was built for maneuverability. The Mk VII pretty much eclipses it in every area except that in the game, so I think that's reasonably true to the series, realistic, and good enough to maintain balance :)

And to take Star's analogy a little further: think of the Mk VII as an F4U Corsair from WWII, and the Mk II as a WWI biplane. The former is faster, more heavily armored and armed, but even for all that it's still less maneuverable than it's predecessor.
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The Saint

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 07:10:03 PM »
Except the MkVII isn't meaningfully larger than the MkII. ;) Where MkII bulges, the MkVII tucks. Where the MkII has bulkier looking engines and guns, MkVII's are more compact. So even though one looks longer than the other, internal volume doesn't differ nearly as much. Certainly nowhere near the F-14/F-16 difference, maybe closer to Hornet and Super Hornet.

Also, as the Space Spartans would yell, "THIS. IS. SPA. CE." If you really want to get technical, the MkVII would have better end-to-end flipping performance because her front and rear maneouvring thrusters are located further apart than the MkII due to how torque works. Technobabble ensues, etc.

And I'm pretty sure none of us here called either bird inferior. The issue is assigned role versus perceived role.

M-562

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 07:29:15 PM »
but since the mk. VII should be a new generation fighter. maybe it was fitted with more(quantity) and mor powerfull engines which would make it be able to keep up or even pass the Mk.II in tight turns. Right?
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wolfblade

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 07:49:05 PM »
and note that MkIIs were possibly designed with ease of manufacture for the first cylon war. I have to agree they are pretty good where they are at though I have to second the slightly better speed or armor suggestions.

Zank

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Was the CNP REALLY removed?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 07:58:07 PM »
lmao Space Spartans :D

One thing that has bugged me for a long time is how everyone says that the CNP was removed. Was it? I don't believe so! Hear me out.

When Galactica first found the Pegasus, the issue came up of "how did you survive"? Cain directly said that she found out that (through reports) that the only ships having any success fighting the cylons were either old or in need of major overhauls. Pegasus itself was in need of a 6 month overhaul at... scorpio ship yards I believe? Point: Pegasus was not up to date on military software/hardware. So far all the conversation that I've heard has revolved around the fact that the Pegasus somehow found out about the evil CNP throwing an early april's fool joke, and purged it themselves. That is a posibility, however quite unlikely and a hell of an assumption. More likely the CNP is more of a Windows type program, in that a new version come out every so often. Pegasus has XP SP2, and needed to get Vista (or they had CNP 3.4, and they were going to get 3.5). The remote control/bug crept in mid versions.

What is my point? The mkVIIs (which probably 90% came from Pegasus since Galactica was SOL when it sent most of it's mkVIIs out in the mini) STILL have the CNP, just an older version of it that wasn't affected by the malware (XP SP2 or even SP1). I highly doubt that where 120+ Battlestars failed in disinfecting their systems in time, the Pegasus succeeded (even with a blind jump to nowhere to sort things out)

I imagine we'll get a proper explanation in the DVD as well as Gina's role in all this.

HOWEVER, a Viper is only as strong as the pilot. "You can know all the math in the ‘Verse, but take a boat in the air you don’t love, she’ll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she’s hurtin’ ‘fore she keens. Makes her home."

Apollo in a mkII could kick Baltar's ass in a mkVII just as Starbuck in a mkVII could kick Stinger in a mkII. Better hardware doesn't equal win. It means advantage, but you need a HELL of a lot of advantages to combat experience. In my oppinion, there's not much of a difference between the mkII and mkVII, though technically there should be.

Also the speed difference between the two is rediculous in BTRL, although it's not noticeable while playing. I support that the speeds should be closer to 170/200, although nowehere in the series is it shown that the mkVII is significantly faster than the mkII. Please prove me wrong :)

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Slamscape

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 07:58:31 PM »
Well from the armor standpoint, The Mk2's are less armored because of several things, IMO.

1. mk2 Older technology, bigger engines, bigger computers, more fuel space.

2. mk2, smaller profile and manuverability to give them an advantage against the original 3 person raiders from the first cylon war.

These two things combined leave a lot less surface area and space to add armor. Where as the mk7 is more of a peacetime fighter, probably built to chase down pirates and criminals, in fighters and freighters. Its more efficient, and is slightly more heavily armed, but is larger so there is more room for armor.

Turambar

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 07:59:37 PM »
Quote from: The Saint;63613
Except the MkVII isn't meaningfully larger than the MkII.


actually, comparatively, the mkvii is huge compared to the mk2
i think we had a scale pic around here somewhere

Dukeman42

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 08:09:31 PM »
Saint:  I'll watch Act of Contrition again and get back to you...but if memory serves Starbuck mentioned something about the MKVII's maneuverability being altered with the downgrade (and yes, in either the mini or the first two episodes, they talked about retro-grading the MkVIIs);  

Quite simply, the team faced a need to make both of these ships somewhat balanced, while maintaining some unique attributes.  And then we needed a way to support that balancing in canon, and the MkVII retrogrades seem to be the best approach.

You are right though, despite the canon connection it is a littl ambiguous..I"ll try to tighten that bit of info up on the main release.


Regarding the CNP removal...in '33' Gaeta mentions when talking with Gaius that the CNP program was on Galactica's computers, but never uploaded into active memory (read: never installed).  He didn't say 'The new version of your (Baltar's) CNP'...he said 'Your CNP'

But again, like I said above, let me check my facts and get back to you.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 08:16:00 PM by Dukeman42 »

StarSlayer

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 08:16:37 PM »
Quote from: Zank;63637
lmao Space Spartans :D

One thing that has bugged me for a long time is how everyone says that the CNP was removed. Was it? I don't believe so! Hear me out.

--Zank


Im trying to think if it was from the ext-Pegasus in the 2.5 DVDs but for some reason i thought the excuse for Pegasus' lack of CNP issues was due to the fact that a large portion of her computer systems and network being down as she readied for a stint in the yards.  Course the CNP was more of a plot device then an honest to gods well researched issue in BSG.  RDM likes keeping inane "treknobable" out of the show so like BSG Engines and Powerplant, "it does what it needs to in the show and thats that " ;).  


The i could be wrong, for some reason that comes to mind about the Pegasus.
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Slamscape

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Differences of Viper MkII and VII
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 08:27:52 PM »
Peggy was in drydock for an overhaul, the reason it was unaffected was that most of its computer systems were powered down and the CNP was offline. Cain says this in 2.5
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 08:31:03 PM by Slamscape »

Zank

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Tech Specs
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 09:05:59 PM »
Ok boys and girls, here we go:

http://72.14.209.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fen.battlestarwiki.org%2Fwiki%2FViper_Mark_II&btnG=Google+Search
http://72.14.209.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fen.battlestarwiki.org%2Fwiki%2FViper_Mark_VII&btnG=Google+Search

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MkII length: 8.4082m
MkVII lenght: 9.8643 meters

The MkVII IS longer by quite a bit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both Width's are unknown (at least if I'm reading things right, the formating through Google cache is funny)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MkII heigt: 2.7247m
MkVII height: 2.9508 meters

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Propulsion:
MkII: 1 x Voram VM2-D15 upper turbothrust engine, 2x Voram VM3-D22 turbothrust engines
MkVII: 3 x turbothrust engines mounted aft

Anyone want to look up Voram's site for their tech specs on engines? :D

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does all this mean? The MkII is smaller in dimensions and has a smaller turn ratio. However we don't know enough about the engines to say whether this makes much of a differerence. The mkII has TWO types of engines, whichc means one must be weaker.

Some Interesting info:

The CNP was "retrograded" to earlier version (if I'm reading this correctly) on the surviving mkVIIs (http://72.14.209.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fen.battlestarwiki.org%2Fwiki%2FCommand_Navigation_Program&btnG=Google+Search). So there is some sort of navigation program, just don't know what it is. Also, the CNP is at least 2 years old. Also, it is a known fact that the CNP was not new, and was in use before Six got her hands on it. Remember how Baltar's code was sloppy and she fixed the algo?

"The Mark VII cockpit is almost totally computerized. There are far fewer analog gauges and more reliance on a more powerful central flight computer. This gives the Mark VII pilot far greater control of the fighter as well as, presumably, greater targeting control in a dogfight."

"Since Galactica only had 40 Viper Mark IIs aboard as part of its museum, they needed as many fighters as possible. The remaining Mark VII's advanced computer systems were refitted to resist Cylon infiltration. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed to fly, the craft is increasingly more difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots such as Apollo and Starbuck. Galactica had roughly 6-8 Mark VIIs on board after the Cylon attack (Scattered, Flight of the Phoenix). "

"While the Mark II could rotate 180 degrees vertically in .35 seconds (Act of Contrition), it is presumed that the Mark VII has an equal or better performance ratio." There we go :) (although it does say presumed)

That's about all the info I can find, useful at least.

To Sum up: The mkII is smaller than the mkVII meaning if it had engines on par with the mkVII it would be more maneuverable. Fact is the engine on the mkVII are most probably more advanced than the mkII. Also we do not know when the mkVII was created/put into service. It's possible it was done mid war? There are hints that the mkVII might have served towards the end of the first war, but more probable it was created after the war, as Slamscape said, to combat pirates and the likes. Peace duty. The mkII was built to kick Cylon ass. Too much confusion. I can't.....

I don't think there is enough data yet to compare the mkII and mkVII side by side. get no.....

relief. Too much typing.


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