Author Topic: for all those democrates out there  (Read 5055 times)

southernpride

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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2005, 12:28:25 AM »
bush has no right to go and start wars because he wants revenge thats bullshit
and its not being a good leader, that is taking his personal problems and makin a country suffer because his own agenda not any1 elses

karajorma

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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2005, 12:43:27 AM »
Quote from: Nuclear
I think what Kara was pointing at was the fact that Clinton wasn't in charge of Desert Storm.

Hint: Try Bush Sr.


Got it in one. I might not like Clinton much but I think it's a bit rich to complain at him for not removing Saddam in a war that happened nearly a whole year before he was elected.

The blame for not deposing Saddam lies squarely at the foot of Bush Snr. Who instead decided to convince the population of Basra to rise up against Saddam and then turned his back on them once they started losing.

I've said this before. The difference between republicans and democrats (which what I'd probably be if I were American) is that we know they guys we vote for are w**kers. We just don't think they're as big w**kers as the opposition. Republicans on the other hand seem to actually refuse to believe their idols ever do anything wrong.

Blaming Clinton for being a pussy when your own wimp president failed to remove Saddam when he had the world's opinion on his side and troops half way into Iraq is quite simply utter rubbish. Clinton had no reason to go into Iraq whatsoever. Not even the spurious reasoning Bush managed to use.

As for Black Hawk Down it might be worth remembering that the US were there on a peace keeping mission. Going in and wiping out whole towns was not the reason they were there.

Turambar

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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2005, 01:25:06 AM »
Israel is evil because of that whole genocide thing theyve got going on.  theyve violated more UN resolutions than Iraq ever did, they detain random palestinians without any legal representation.  why? because of all of the suicide bombers.  but have you ever asked yourself why these people decide to blow themselves up?  What people forget is that even if they live differently (and palestinians live like shit, thanks to israel) they're still people.  These people are so oppressed that they have nothing left, and blowing themselves up is the only way they can fight back.  There's a law in israel that says if a piece of land is unnocupied for two years, it can be taken for israelis to live on.  What they do is evict the palestinians, and keep them off, either with guns, or with that nice little fence theyve built between the people and their land.  And their troops are real cowards too, using palestinians as human shields, and assasinating an old cleric with a hellfire missile launched from an attack helicopter.  it disgusts me, how this supposedly westernized country, this 'outpost of democracy' in the middle east can get away with this kind of crap.  and how do you think the other people in the area view the US?  if israel is an outpost of western democracy, and they do that, what kind of impression does that make

Robotech123

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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2005, 01:29:24 AM »
Quote from: southernpride
bush has no right to go and start wars because he wants revenge thats bullshit
and its not being a good leader, that is taking his personal problems and makin a country suffer because his own agenda not any1 elses


What the hell are you talking about man? Revenge...hardly. You have been reading off of too many radical democratic websites and have been brainwashed by their content. Not saying the republicans are any better...but..please check your facts before you post again. Nearly all of the stuff you posted is BS. Do you realize how one sided that website you posted is?!?! People can twist things to make them sound very different than they really are. Please check your facts next time instead of pulling them from your ass.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2005, 02:06:34 AM »
I remember reading that Clinton was elected right at the end of Desert Storm, now that might have been wrong, But, I do know that he ran out of Mogadishu like a baby.
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southernpride

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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2005, 02:56:32 AM »
do u realize that i said revenge because thats what robotech was talkin about and i was jsut amkin a point
also i realize that that site is very biased and that there are 2 sides of everything and sometimes 3 (nader) but then again can u tell me y bush started the war if he wasnt pissed at saddam because of his daddy and if he wasnt then y not all the countries that have horrible dictators.
and please if u have no idea of what u r talking about then dont get pissed about other people

another thing that i saw and every1 and their mother can check it because i know that its not some democrat bs: the day after 9-11 all air traffic wa suspended, execpt that bush made and exception and do u knwo waht that was?  Bsh let the osama familly fly back to wherever their from out of the us right after 9-11, do u knwo y because they were buddy buddy because of the oil situation  (even though they had down osama bin laden as a major suspect of 9-11


 have yall ever seen Michael Moore's movie or book i know it is baised nad what not BUT it has some very interistin FACTS in it if u sort out all the propaganda there are some facts in it that make bush look pretty bad

when he was told about 9-11 he was readin to a class of elementary school kinds and a secreat service guy came and whispered in his ear that the us has been attacked, and do u knwo what he did he sat there and continued to read to the kids after he'd been told that we were under attack

Nuclear

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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2005, 03:01:53 AM »
Turambar, have you been living under a rock for the past week? That's all about to end. Israel and Palestine are finally standing down.

Plus, half the crap you said about Israel is just plain not true. If the Israelis do detain prisoners, it's because those Palestinians that they do detain are killing innocent Israelis (whom, might I point out, the entire world seems to be against).

Before you start calling Israel evil and blame them for "blowing off UN resolutions", look at all of the crimes committed by the innocent Palestinians and their Arab supporters. Saddam gassed his own people. The Saudis refuse to give their people any education. Syria persecutes those who don't agree with their own views on the world. Palestine sends teenagers with bombs strapped to their bodies off to die rather than try to make a deal with Israel. Chechnya kills little kids in schools.

Don't ever call Israel evil until you look at what the rest of the Middle East is doing.

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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2005, 03:07:02 AM »
You mean Bush should have stoped reading to those kids and said "sorry I can't read anymore because some morons have destroyed the Trade Centers and hundreds of people are dead".
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Harlequin

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« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2005, 03:13:42 AM »
Quote
Oh. So in the middle of an all but global recession it's a good idea to decrease taxes to those who, you claim, pay the most taxes? And start wars costing billions of dollars a day? That's sound fiscal planning right there.


First of all, if youíre going to decrease taxes, it makes sense to do it for the people who are paying the most. That way, you don't end up with part of the population paying large taxes and part of the population paying virtually nothing (which is actually pretty close to how it is right now.) Anyway, tax cuts actually help the economy if they are done right. Tax cuts mean more money for the people. This means that the people spend more money on investments or products, both of which end up with the money being returned to the employees of those companies as income. The government taxes this extra money in the system, as it taxes everything. Therefore, the government taxes lower percents on more money. In effect, the government gets the same revenue, and the economy improves. This occurs if the tax cuts are done correctly. I'm not saying this is going to happen with Bush, but this is at least a lot of the theory behind tax cuts in general. Reagan successfully did this in the 80's. I'm also not defending Bush's war. I think that it was poor planning. Also what do you mean about the people I "claim" pay the most taxes? Those numbers about who pays aren't a wild estimate, thatís US tax law.

Quote
, if u were poor ,lets say about 15k a year, would u want a bigger tax cut or a smaller 1

You dont pay income tax if your income is less than 32,150 per year. I think i already said this.

Quote
if bush didnt invade iraq for the oil then what for

What do you actually mean, "invade for oil"? Are you referring to more oil for the US? Bush personally aquiring oil? Or are you just using a phrase you have heard? Anyway, neither of the first two are actually true. The second is ridiculous, and the first is not true. The price of oil has gone up since his war. That price is controlled by OPEC. Who rules Iraq makes no difference. Iraq is being set up to independently control its oil. This means that when we are done the US will be out of the loop.
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2005, 04:23:11 AM »
Quote from: Harlequin
First of all, if youíre going to decrease taxes, it makes sense to do it for the people who are paying the most. That way, you don't end up with part of the population paying large taxes and part of the population paying virtually nothing (which is actually pretty close to how it is right now.) Anyway, tax cuts actually help the economy if they are done right. Tax cuts mean more money for the people. This means that the people spend more money on investments or products, both of which end up with the money being returned to the employees of those companies as income. The government taxes this extra money in the system, as it taxes everything. Therefore, the government taxes lower percents on more money. In effect, the government gets the same revenue, and the economy improves. This occurs if the tax cuts are done correctly. I'm not saying this is going to happen with Bush, but this is at least a lot of the theory behind tax cuts in general. Reagan successfully did this in the 80's. I'm also not defending Bush's war. I think that it was poor planning. Also what do you mean about the people I "claim" pay the most taxes? Those numbers about who pays aren't a wild estimate, thatís US tax law.



Tax cuts for the rich to stimulate a flailing economy doesn't work. It's never worked in the past, and it's not going to work now. It did, I'm sure, make a whole lot of fat cats very happy and willing to support Bush's re-election campaign, but it certainly didn't do much for the US economy, which continues to go down the shitter and only has a chance of coming good now that Bush's latest budget has hacked the crap out of social spending. Ultimately, it doesn;t bother me of course - Australia's one of the few places in the world to buck the global economic trend, and WA's is best performing economy in the country. I'd've expected it'd've worried you though.

As for the tax breakdowns, Bush's tax cuts assist the top 2% of American taxpayers by the most, by a massive margin. In order for them to be paying more than the rest of the population, they'd need, on average, to pay 50 times more than the average taxpayer from the other group. I'm not saying that's impossible given the socioeconomic profile of America (and, I'll admit, a lot of other industrialized western nations), just unlikely if you know anything about the tax economics of the upper class - when you can hire a bevy of accountants to sort out your finances, there're very few taxes that can't be dodged in one way or another.

And besides, what's wrong with the upper class paying the most tax? They can afford it, no? That's the elemental tenant of the PAYE system. All that decreasing their payments is going to do is shift the burden of governmental support onto the middle and lower class, and it'll be a greater burden than before when someone suddenly realizes that this borrowed money stuff isn't always all that great (did you know you eventually have to give that back?!?) and that, with a significantly decreased inflow of cash from the upper class, and no obvious way to decrease the outflow, someone has to pick up the slack, and you can bet that, under the US election system, there's not going to be a single person elected under the promise of tax increases to the wealthy.


Quote from: Harlequin
What do you actually mean, "invade for oil"? Are you referring to more oil for the US? Bush personally aquiring oil? Or are you just using a phrase you have heard? Anyway, neither of the first two are actually true. The second is ridiculous, and the first is not true. The price of oil has gone up since his war. That price is controlled by OPEC. Who rules Iraq makes no difference. Iraq is being set up to independently control its oil. This means that when we are done the US will be out of the loop.



I want to ask you a simple question - do you honestly think that the US is going to leave when Iraq gets back on its feet and that there'll be no "special relationship" between the two countries? Tres bullshit. The neo-cons are aware of the global decrease in oil reserves and they're doing whatever the hell they can to secure friendly nations with access to oil so that, when the shit finally hits the fan and people start to wake up to the global resource shortage in a decade or two, America will be able to work out some nice, safe guaranteed trade agreements with the Iraquis.

/me hides untapped Australian oil reserves. Mine! Mine!
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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2005, 06:59:30 AM »
...this had better not turn into HLP... :sigh:

ShadowWolf_IH

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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2005, 08:04:03 AM »
i'm just waiting for the first insult to be hurled so i can close thius thread.

Duelron1001

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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2005, 08:25:36 AM »
at the rate that this is going that shouldn't take to long.
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2005, 02:39:11 PM »
Quote from: ShadowWolf_IH
i'm just waiting for the first insult to be hurled so i can close thius thread.


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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2005, 04:14:02 PM »
Ok, we should all try to calm down a bit.

This is a complex topic.



I want to point out the following things:

There is no 'evil' nation. It is wrong to call a whole nation 'evil'.
You judge all people in that nation with a sentence like that.

You can point out your position, but don't try to force people to agree with you.

If point out your position you should explain why you think this way.

Tolerate the opinions of the other people.
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