Author Topic: Viper Mark V er IV er somthin  (Read 18278 times)

ngtm1r

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2006, 05:01:19 PM »
Quote from: timbo1138
I'm with Frost on this one. The Viper is a space-superiority fighter, that's what it does. That's what the Mk1 did, it's what the Mk7 does. It's versatile, but you're not going to see a bomber version. I'd imagine they'd use a Raptor for that, or a dedicated bomber craft.


Well, let me put it this way. The Mark II was the Cylon War Viper variant. The Mark VII is the contemporary variant. There are therefore five (possibly more, if they went the Mark #B Mark #C etc. route) intermediate Viper models, and it has been 40 years since the Cylon War. This translates to a new Viper model every eight years, which, as a lifespan for a peacetime fighter, is a bit short.

The qualitative advantage held by the Mark VII does not seem to make it vastly superior to the Mark II*. The easy way of proving this is noting that Kat's Mark II was capable enough of keeping up with Apollo's Mark VII that she could be realistically assigned to serve as his wingman in "Scattered". This is, effectively, like assigning an F-89 Sabre to fly wing on an F-15 or even an F-22. It really, really should not work. But it does.

This militates in favor of the Mark II and the Mark VII not actually being seperated by five generations of fighter design. They are more likely really two generations apart, perhaps three at most. This leaves either three or two Viper marks that may have been one-off designs for a different purpose. (Completely leaving aside the essentially nothing known about the Mark I Viper.)

Moving into the realm of pure speculation, if one chooses to assume that the Mark I Viper was the Mark II's bomber counterpart, then you have four or five "fighter" Viper marks and four or three "bomber" Viper marks. I personally favor the five-three concept, since the operational lifetime of a bomber is normally longer then that of a fighter, so they would have gone through fewer "generations" of ships. This would probably make the Mark IV the mid-peace bomber and the Mark VI the Mark VII's bomber contemporary.


*Or perhaps the Mark VII was vastly superior, until they nuked the computer system to keep the Cylons out? Then again even the Mark II Viper must require sophisticated fly-by-wire gear to function; what could they have torn out of the Mark VII that so badly impaired its performance? Supposedly the problem was the Command Navigation Protocol, which was not apparently a critical program. (If it were a critical program it would have been scrutinized more heavily!) Baltar does not recommend to Gaeta that they totally nuke anybody's computers, only that they remove the CNP from anything that happens to have it installed.
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MAIA

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2006, 05:01:31 PM »
Quote from: Defender_16
Perhaps a varient of the Raptor Gunship with it's ECM suite removed and beef-ier engines installed?  Heavier chin turret, dedicated bomb bay as well as defensive use missiles on the under wing hardpoints.  

Would that fit the bomber role? :biggrin1:

Probably ;) ... like a mix between a viper and a raptor, but bigger ...

MAIA
« Last Edit: April 19, 2006, 05:08:45 PM by MAIA »

Defender_16

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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2006, 05:41:14 PM »
Using the miracle that is MS Paint...

Arcain

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2006, 07:18:31 PM »
Never really cared for the Raptor design, I guess its just a functional craft, no beauty needed.

Coota0

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2006, 10:58:25 PM »
If we're going to discuss naming the strike fighter something other than Viper, I vote for Cobra. Cobra was the nickname of the YF-17 which became the F/A-18 after losing the light-weight fighter competition to the YF-16 Falcon, in turn the F-16 is called the Viper by its oilots allegedly in reference to the original BSG.

I think referring to the Mk. II as an F-86 or F-89 is a little too far back I think it  would be more comparable to an F-4.

As far as the argument for the Viper MK.? always being a fighter:
1) Maybe everytime there was any type of semi-major impovement there was a change in the Mark #, ie. new engines, new avionics etc.

2) Perhaps the Colonials referred to all air-superiority aircraft as Vipers, so that the
MK.I an atmospheric model
Mk.II is the "carrier" based fighter
MkIII. is the Planetray based defense fighter (why this would be different than the MK.II, I don't know but it's possible)
Starting with the Mk. IV There are some structural and avionics changes and you have a MK.IV atmospheric fighter
Mk.V "Carrier" based fighter
MK.VI planatery based fighter
Starting with the MK.VII they do away with the Atmospheric fighter so the Mk.VII variant is "Carrier" based
and so far we've seen no proof that there aren't MK. VIIIs or Mk.IX Vipers

MAIA

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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2006, 01:06:21 AM »
Here's a lousy sketch i did at work. Make it 1/3 bigger than the mk VII.

ngtm1r

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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2006, 01:17:29 AM »
Quote from: Coota0

I think referring to the Mk. II as an F-86 or F-89 is a little too far back I think it would be more comparable to an F-4.


Actually that was my point; I made it poorly. Basically, if the Mark VII and Mark II are really seperated by five generations of design, then the comparison of them being like an F-89 and an F-22 would be valid. But that doesn't really make sense based on what we've seen of relative performance, so the Mark II and Mark VII aren't seperated by five generations of fighter design.


EDIT: While we're here, I have this crazy idea that the original Mk I Viper is actually the same thing as the original, piloted Cylon Raider.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 01:21:01 AM by ngtm1r »
Yea verily, though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am piloting I house-sized mass of "**** you." (With apologies to Peptuck)

StarSlayer

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2006, 01:20:36 AM »
Actually it looks a lot like the MK VIIE Strike Viper concept i have brewing.  I finished up my MK VI concept and will post it 2 morrow at school once i get it scanned.  I dummed down the details so it shouldn’t do the g thing but it was torture doing it, I am a detail junkie!  You should see my future universe attack helicopter paint chips and ricochet scrapes galore.  I think the Mark VI concept is good.  I made something that looks like the Mark VII would be the next logical step from.
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timbo1138

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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2006, 03:17:32 AM »
Actually, I always assumed that the Viper Mk 1 was visually identical to the TOS Vipers. The Mk 2 was supposedly the upgrade that really helped the Colonies win the war.
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All of this has happened before...

Lt. Cannonfodder

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2006, 03:50:09 AM »
Quote from: timbo1138
Actually, I always assumed that the Viper Mk 1 was visually identical to the TOS Vipers. The Mk 2 was supposedly the upgrade that really helped the Colonies win the war.
That's propably the case, as we can clearly see a TOS Viper in the Galactica museum.

OutofStep351

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2006, 04:20:19 AM »
okay, well, here's what i'm off to draw:
Cobra MK I - Strike Fighter/Bomber
Cobra MK II - FTL Strike Bomber
Rattlesnake MK I - Interceptor
Prometheus - Flak Frigate
Athena - Light Carrier
Trireme - Marine Heavy Lander
T
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OutofStep351

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2006, 04:45:05 AM »
i hate to throw this out, because i know the controversy it will spark with you airplane nuts, but does anybody have any idea where the fuel tank is on the viper?
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ngtm1r

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2006, 06:45:44 AM »
Probably under/just behind the pilot. Which probably doesn't make them real happy people. I suppose Starbuck isn't unique in doing a lot of praying.

I've been thinking about it a bit more and here's the rub: so some Colonial Fleet tactician sits down, and he thinks that unless a bomber is jump-capable, it really loses its purpose, because anything it can do the main battery of a Battlestar can do better. And if it's jump-capable, then it will require a jump-capable fighter escort. Which the Colonial Fleet does not have. So they don't develop bombers. Their tactics don't have a use for them.

Basically, Colonial tactics are to first use the Battlestar's guns, including the main battery, to establish the flak wall o' doom and make a safe area around the ship, so that Vipers can be launched safely. Then the Vipers take over the main anti-fighter work while the Battlestar's dedicated AA guns pick up what they drop, and the main battery can get down to the business of whacking Basestars. Or, that's the theory.

Unfortunately the Cylons have their own theory, which involves overwhelming the Viper line and getting enough Raiders through to harass the Battlestar into switching its main battery over to AA fire, and the Cylon theory works more often then the Colonial one does. Galactica's short half her fighters, so she's relatively easy to put in this posistion. Pegasus has a full fighter complement, consisting of Mark VIIs, and therefore the Cylons need a lot more Raiders to do the job. (Which was probably why they needed three Basestars in "The Captain's Hand": the extra Raiders. Even then Pegasus doesn't seem to take missile hits nearly as often, indicating enough of her guns are left to engage inbound missiles and knock them down most of the time.)

The obvious move for the Colonials then is to develop some kind of capablity to hurt a Basestar without needing the hurt to come from the muzzles of a Battlestar's main battery...in other words, short-range, non-jump-capable bombers.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 06:49:58 AM by ngtm1r »
Yea verily, though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am piloting I house-sized mass of "**** you." (With apologies to Peptuck)

frost

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Viper Mark V er IV er somthin
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2006, 06:52:39 AM »
you should make a weaponless viper variant and call it the garden snake =p

Defender_16

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« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2006, 01:34:22 PM »
Couldn't a Rator group armed with nukes jump in from behind the Cylon Basestars once they're engaged with the Battlestars?  
They can carry atleast two good sized nukes on their underwing hardpoints.  They could launch their missiles and jump away before any Raiders could get clear of the main engagment to intercept.  

(In the episode where Pegasus arrives the Raptor that lands on Galactica with the Admiral aboard had something like 40 kill markers.  How does a Raptor get that many? )

Quote from: ngtm1r
I've been thinking about it a bit more and here's the rub: so some Colonial Fleet tactician sits down, and he thinks that unless a bomber is jump-capable, it really loses its purpose, because anything it can do the main battery of a Battlestar can do better. And if it's jump-capable, then it will require a jump-capable fighter escort. Which the Colonial Fleet does not have. So they don't develop bombers. Their tactics don't have a use for them.

A light Light Cruiser and Destroyer escort would certainly take away any need for a bomber.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 01:38:38 PM by Defender_16 »