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Game Warden => Polls => Topic started by: Mobius on August 14, 2009, 04:56:11 PM

Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 14, 2009, 04:56:11 PM
Sometimes, debates which are related to ship designs (among other things) lead community members to discuss their favorite game of the series and place it on a higher hierarchy level. There are many differences between the two games of the series, and these differences lead to different interpretations of the series itself. Each side of purists has its own reasons to prefer a particular game over the other, but the topic has been discussed only a few times.

Hence, here's a question: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2? Without considering graphics, which game of the series do you prefer?

I'm getting the discussion started by saying that I prefer FreeSpace 2. The second chapter of the series added a lot of new features and also "corrected" certain plot flaws of the first chapter, so that's why I prefer it. I admit that FreeSpace 1 managed the Shivans in a better way, though - in FS2, thanks to many unbalanced weapons (Tornado, Trebuchet, Kayser), the Shivans somewhat lost their fearsome might. Yet still, I consider the second chapter a radical improvement over the first one.

Voters are strongly encouraged to post their reasons. :)
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: MatthewPapa on August 14, 2009, 05:12:12 PM
FS1 is preferred by me.

The FSport is much more enthralling and engaging to play than the main FS2 campaign, IMO.

FS1 by far was better thought out, had a more intense campaign, better music, voice acting, cutscenes, (arguably) ships etc etc

the only thing we are missing is more beam cannons :P

I guess I will be a little biased because I played FS1 first, and have more childhood memories playing it than FS2
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 14, 2009, 05:18:01 PM
I liked FS1 better. It had a much better atmosphere, and seemed to convey the epic atmosphere better than FS2.

That said, I see a definite trend. The game which people played first will usually be their preferred choice.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 14, 2009, 05:31:33 PM
The trend is common and leads people to claim that old games/times were better simply because of good memories.

I think the FS1 Vs. FS2 debate should go beyond the trend, anyway - additions like beam cannons, squadrons and modern ship designs are notable and pimp FS2 a lot and cannot be underestimated. However, as I said before, FS1's atmosphere and balanced weapons are a strong advantage over its predecessor.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 14, 2009, 05:46:21 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119605
I think the FS1 Vs. FS2 debate should go beyond the trend, anyway - additions like beam cannons, squadrons and modern ship designs are notable and pimp FS2 a lot and cannot be underestimated. However, as I said before, FS1's atmosphere and balanced weapons are a strong advantage over its predecessor.
There's not much of a debate, really. No matter how much you say I'm never going to change my mind. :P
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Novachen on August 14, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
Because i have never played the original FreeSpace1 i can only rate the FSPort in comparsion to FreeSpace2. The first missions without shields were certainly difficult but after you gain the shields this game is too easy in comparsion to FreeSpace2 since you have there flaks and beams.

Also there are many logical errors in the story, like wrong jump nodes and wrong cbanims. FreeSpace2 is better :)
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 14, 2009, 05:55:23 PM
Quote from: Snail;119607
There's not much of a debate, really. No matter how much you say I'm never going to change my mind. :P


It's not a matter of changing other people's mind, it's mostly a matter of accepting the obvious (FS2 having many features FS1 didn't have) even if, overall, the first chapter had a remarkable atmosphere. Prefering a chapter over another is a matter of opinions, but refusing to consider the load of improvements FS2 features is not. :p

Quote from: Novachen;119608
Because i have never played the original FreeSpace1 i can only rate the FSPort in comparsion to FreeSpace2. The first missions without shields were certainly difficult but after you gain the shields this game is too easy in comparsion to FreeSpace2 since you have there flaks and beams.


The lack of shields was challenging and significantly improved the gaming experience, I think.

Quote from: Novachen;119608
Also there are many logical errors in the story, like wrong jump nodes and wrong cbanims. FreeSpace2 is better :)


Yeah, I find inconsistencies another good reason to prefer FS2.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Thulius on August 14, 2009, 05:58:46 PM
In my opinion, they are both great because:

->FS1 had a better feeling by playing it. It was like a comic and I really enjoyed that.:drevil:
->FS2 had beam cannons and a better musc.:cool1:

For the moment I play FS1 more, but I like both of them.:)
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Novachen on August 14, 2009, 06:02:33 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119609
The lack of shields was challenging and significantly improved the gaming experience, I think.

It was interesting and difficult, sure :) But too short i think :)
I have played FreeSpace2 first and after the dialogue in "the great hunt" i was a little disappointed that the shivans haven't flaks and beams in freespace after all and that the GTA has the shieldtechnique so early in the game. the shivans seems stronger in the missions when you don't have shields. But after you have them, there are the same as in freespace2 and in freespace2 the missions are more difficult because the mentioned beams and flaks are used.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: VPR on August 14, 2009, 06:19:40 PM
I prefer FreeSpace 2 and I only got round to playing FSPort ealier this year but though I'm currently playing through Silent Threat Reborn, overall FS2 is still my favourite of the two.

FreeSpace 2 just seems more interesting to me and it has better capital ships in terms of diversity and weaponary, capital ships just feel more like they should of in FS1. I still enjoyed playing through FS1 though the fact I played it after FS2 is probably the reason why I still favour the latter of the series.

I have to agree though after playing FS1 the Shivans had lost their edge slightly due to stronger GTVA weapons such as the Kayser but in another sense the GTVA had past experience, a better state of military strength and so could bridge the technology gap quicker than in FS1 when the Shivans were a completely new threat.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Taristin on August 14, 2009, 07:08:23 PM
FS1

The feeling while playing each game was as follows:
FS1 = "oh shit, we're getting slaughtered by the dozen by a clearly superior foe in unknown numbers"

FS2 = "Well, we're more or less on equal footing as the shivans, no big deal."

Yea, they were ovepowering in FS2, but it didnt feel like it.  FS1 was a lot more of a 'fly by the seat of your pants, pray to god sol survives' type game than fs2 could be. And all the fancy eye candy and effecs and nebulas didnt change that at all. (In fact, the blackness of space being so pronounced in FS1 I think led to an even drearier atmosphere.)

The FSPort, admirable as it is, simply cannot and does not match the atmosphere that the original game still has.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Rodo on August 14, 2009, 07:11:26 PM
I played first FS2... so I guess I should go with that one.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2009, 07:19:30 PM
FS2.

FS1 was shallow, trite, cliched, and predictable, and the Shivans came across as cardboard villains with all the menace of late-Voyager Borg. Did have some nice ship designs, though.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 14, 2009, 08:22:55 PM
(http://geocities.com/alpha_quadrant_project/conceptpics/SC_Durgha.jpg) vs. (http://geocities.com/alpha_quadrant_project/conceptpics/SC_Asuras.jpg)

'nuff said. :P



No, not really. I enjoyed both games, but FS1 will always have a special space in my heart, since I played it when I was like 7 or 8 years old and loved every bit of it
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: shiv on August 14, 2009, 08:43:16 PM
Quote from: MatthewPapa;119597
FS1 is preferred by me.

The FSport is much more enthralling and engaging to play than the main FS2 campaign, IMO.

FS1 by far was better thought out, had a more intense campaign, better music, voice acting, cutscenes, (arguably) ships etc etc

the only thing we are missing is more beam cannons :P

I guess I will be a little biased because I played FS1 first, and have more childhood memories playing it than FS2


:yes:

FS1 = Win for perfect music, atmosphere and feeling of loosing all the time.

FS2 was basically fighting and shooting lots of bugs that weren't that dangerous as FS1 Shivans.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 14, 2009, 08:45:08 PM
FS2 was an amazing fragfest of immeasurable fun, but IMO it wasn't immersive and it wasn't gritty enough for my tastes.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2009, 08:57:26 PM
All the errors and inconsistencies in FS1, plus the lack of characters and military details like FS2 had, made it seem a bit less gritty to me.

Just goes to show they're probably about even. I really do think it's whatever you played first.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 14, 2009, 08:57:58 PM
Apparently, no one here cares about how FS1's ending was so predictable and cliché while FS2's ending was totally unpredictable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bv4hBD8GK4&feature=related
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2009, 09:04:01 PM
Except for how that was already mentioned?

Quote
FS1 was shallow, trite, cliched, and predictable.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 14, 2009, 09:28:26 PM
Quote from: General Battuta;119630
I really do think it's whatever you played first.
This.

The end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned. Good day to you kind sirs!
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Taristin on August 15, 2009, 01:05:35 AM
You didnt see FS2's end coming? How?
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: peterv on August 15, 2009, 02:31:39 AM
Of topic: THANK YOU SNAIL for the concept art of the Lucy. Much needed for you know what. :yes:

On topic : FS2. Having the disadvadages of a sequell, Volition managed to make a faster and even more atmosphairic story than FS1 (wich i played in FSPORT and before FS2)
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Black Wolf on August 15, 2009, 07:25:58 AM
It's tough to pick. The diversity of weaponry, more flexible engine and what not made FS2 the more impressive technical achievement, and I think made it more fun. The storyline was better too. However, I think FS1 had the better written storyline, more atmospheric and had better designed ships. And way better cutscenes.

That said, we have the source code for FS2, and that has made a huge difference. If you consider them from the day they each came out, I think FS1 edges in front (but only by a nose). If you consider them today, FS2 by a huge margin.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: ngtm1r on August 15, 2009, 07:42:26 AM
FS1, simply because I prefer the depiction of the GTA's military as competent, highly trained, highly motivated, and capable. The GTVA's is disunified and not portrayed as a terribly capable force, though they did avoid the stage the GTA went through where it didn't have a plan.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 15, 2009, 10:03:59 AM
That POV analyzes the plot, but not the game. I don't see why you should ignore the following:

1) No squadrons whatsoever;

2) No small beams (=super lasers) on Shivan ships other than the Lucifer;

3) A load of various and embarassing inconsistencies;

As I said, despite FS1 has a special atmosphere, the game simply has too many flaws to be considered superior to FS2. When analyzing a game, I think people should go well beyond looking at the graphics and plot...
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 15, 2009, 10:25:03 AM
Squadrons do nothing to make the game more interesting, honestly. I never paid them much attention except for the pretty picture on the side of my ship and a difference in the voice actor reading the briefing lines. Other than that, squadrons are really pointless and almost forced the way I see it.

I don't buy the whole "fixing" crap you keep putting up. That's complete and utter bull. The fact that FreeSpace 2 Shivans have beams does not say anything to "override" the canon of FreeSpace 1. Furthermore, Shivan ships are never seen having small beams even in the introductory cutscene of FreeSpace 2, further debunking your bullshit statement. I consider the portrayal of events in FS1 very canon indeed - Nowhere is it ever implied that Shivan ships had beams during the Great War, or anything of the sort.

Embarrassing inconsistencies? If you ask me, I'd say FreeSpace 2 is the one which has the most inconsistencies. The ship designs are woeful - They are uninspired and even have lower-resolution textures than some of their FS1 counterparts. Ship design in FS1 was highly coordinated - Terrans were blocky with mostly grey and metal colours, the Vasudans were tan coloured but with blue on their tech, Shivans were red and metallic. Whereas in FS2, the designs were everywhere, they were ugly and some of them were just downright weird (the Myrmidon comes to mind). For me this completely ripped apart the distinctive characters each of the species had. The Shivans went from being planning, strategic enemies bent on annihilating you to space bugs doing random incomprehensible shit, and the Vasudans.... Well, they became like Terran lapdogs.

Sure FreeSpace 1 had node inconsistencies and shit like that. Be honest - Did you even notice the first time you played?


If you ask me, FreeSpace 1 was more of a universe, while FreeSpace 2 was simply a story. FreeSpace 1's portrayal of the universe was mysterious and unfathomable, almost epic in scale. The three species each had their own distinctive characteristics, and this was underlined by their ship building and battle tactics. The Ancients were truly mysterious, giving a sense of mythology and cosmic importance to your struggle. The events portrayed in FS1 were like stepping stones to the grand (though I'll admit predictable) conclusion. You can tell this by the way FS1 was approached - Interplay had fiction written, there was even a FreeSpace Reference Bible. There were no such promotion for FS2. In fact, FS1 was intentionally left open so that expansions like (the failed) Silent Threat could expand upon the universe. FS2 was never planned this way, and it shows. FS2 was there to tell one story and run, while FS1 was actually supposed to be a universe from which multiple stories could grow. To me, this made FS1 more immersive and gave it that distinctive atmosphere that FS2 never got.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 15, 2009, 10:41:51 AM
I tihnk you should definitely do the following:

1) Stop blaming FS2's designs, people prefer them over their FS1 counterparts due to their personal opinion. There are no absolute statements everyone can accept as "revealed truth";

2) Check the FreeSpace Wiki and find out how FS1's inconsistencies go well beyond the things you wouldn't notice - most of them are embarassing errors;
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: shiv on August 15, 2009, 10:46:14 AM
Quote
most of them are embarassing errors
But they don't kill brilliant atmosphere of Conflict: FreeSpace.
I really don't see any reason to blame FS1 for onconsistencies that you can encounter thenm. I seriously didn't notice them while playing.


And as Snail said, in FreeSpace 2 everything became worse than in FS1 except beam technology imporved. The atmosphere wasn't that brilliant like in FS1 - it's a big shame. I expected something that deeply involving like FS1, but I didn't get it. It was a big disappointment for me and both some new experieance with new music and deep plot, but much diffrent. Calling it worse is wrong. But it was just diffrent and I didn't love it, while FS1 made me love it.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: ngtm1r on August 15, 2009, 12:13:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119664
That POV analyzes the plot, but not the game. I don't see why you should ignore the following:

1) No squadrons whatsoever;

2) No small beams (=super lasers) on Shivan ships other than the Lucifer;

3) A load of various and embarassing inconsistencies;

As I said, despite FS1 has a special atmosphere, the game simply has too many flaws to be considered superior to FS2. When analyzing a game, I think people should go well beyond looking at the graphics and plot...


The lack of squadrons is actually a strong selling point in my interpretation, natch. The Universal Pilot's License you were issued with your copy of FS1 and the fact you don't undergo transfers to end up piloting different craft suggests a standardized, easy-to-use control setup that...well, that replicates what's actually required to play. That the GTA has done this sort of thing is not only extremely rational (because we can't expect the same thing of realworld pilots, we trend towards fewer and fewer aircraft types in service being asked to accomplish more of the jobs), it also demonstrates a suitable level of technological advancement to go with FS' ludcriously powerful weapons. It also makes logistical and personnel matters easier, something always desirable, and explains how the 14-Year-War can have lasted so long with the kind of loss figures we saw for Operation Templar: pilots are not hard to train. Squadrons are also never deployed as a unit. In such an environment the squadron echelon being abolished makes a great deal of sense.

Why should the presence of smaller beams even matter?

Many of the inconsistencies only exist in comparison with FS2. To hold them against FS1 when comparing the games is not only patently unfair, but stupid. The inconsistancies should most likely be counted against FS2 and not FS1 because it introduced them.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: karajorma on August 15, 2009, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: ngtm1r;119672
Many of the inconsistencies only exist in comparison with FS2. To hold them against FS1 when comparing the games is not only patently unfair, but stupid. The inconsistancies should most likely be counted against FS2 and not FS1 because it introduced them.


Yep. I was going to point out the exact same thing.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 15, 2009, 01:17:17 PM
FS1 contradicted itself more than once, and most of the times there's no need to mention FS2. Take a look at the Wiki and you'll find out.

(yeah, the Wiki)
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 15, 2009, 01:29:59 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119678
FS1 contradicted itself more than once, and most of the times there's no need to mention FS2. Take a look at the Wiki and you'll find out.

(yeah, the Wiki)
Like many people have said, they were hardly show stoppers.

I seriously doubt anyone here actually noticed and gasped "OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THIS BRIEFING IS WRONG, I HAVE TO STOP PLAYING THIS GAME NOW IT'S HORRIBLE"
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: ngtm1r on August 15, 2009, 03:02:43 PM
The wiki doesn't actually point out an unambigous insistance of such. Many of the node inconsistencies only exist once we got the full view in the Colossus cutscene, for example.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: karajorma on August 15, 2009, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119678
FS1 contradicted itself more than once, and most of the times there's no need to mention FS2. Take a look at the Wiki and you'll find out.


Name the biggest one then. Let's see how ridiculously small you're prepared to go when nitpicking.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: MatthewPapa on August 15, 2009, 07:40:49 PM
im thinking that they never would have dreamed fans would analyze things that closely. probably just a goofup, thats all there is too it
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 15, 2009, 08:08:42 PM
Quote from: karajorma;119697
Name the biggest one then. Let's see how ridiculously small you're prepared to go when nitpicking.


There's a link for everyone to check.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 15, 2009, 08:25:59 PM
:doubtful:
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 15, 2009, 08:39:33 PM
Uhm, how about the Ancients? :rolleyes:

Some players did not fully understand what the monologues were really about until the very end (or well after) of the game. Additionally, those monologues were "cheap" ways to tell their story, and no traces of Ancient ships can be seen - even one, single ship at the very end would have characterized them even more. Someone might point the Ancient monologues out as remarkable examples of good speech and poetry, but they lacked several features they might have had without any problems.

A simple look at the contrasting opinions regarding the Ancients is enough to reveal the presence of a considerable gap in FS1's storytelling.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Taristin on August 16, 2009, 12:36:26 AM
Weak argument.  I can summarize what you said. "I don't enjoy monologues. I wish they showed me what yet another race would have looked like.  I didnt realize that there was more to the monologues until after I finished the game, went online, and read other people's interpretations."
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 01:01:38 AM
Quote from: Mobius;119736
Uhm, how about the Ancients? :rolleyes:

Some players did not fully understand what the monologues were really about until the very end (or well after) of the game. Additionally, those monologues were "cheap" ways to tell their story, and no traces of Ancient ships can be seen - even one, single ship at the very end would have characterized them even more. Someone might point the Ancient monologues out as remarkable examples of good speech and poetry, but they lacked several features they might have had without any problems.

A simple look at the contrasting opinions regarding the Ancients is enough to reveal the presence of a considerable gap in FS1's storytelling.
:doubtful:^2

Seriously, that has to be one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard. The fact that the Ancients never revealed themselves is not a problem. You're the one who's making it a problem: Honestly I haven't seen a single person who has complained about never seeing the Ancients in FS1. And before you even think of replying, you had better find some examples to back up your post.

Oh, and the fact that there are "contrasting opinions" regarding the Ancients doesn't indicate a "considerable gap" in storytelling. Does the fact that there are "contrasting opinions" about the motives of the Shivans somehow infer that the Shivans were terribly presented and should've been portrayed in more detail? Or that the Shivans' motives should've been revealed? No. Things are left blank for a reason, you know. The mere fact that there is discussion about the subject doesn't mean anything.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 16, 2009, 01:06:27 AM
All right, I have to agree, and I'm all for FS2 - that's a pretty spurious argument about FS1 right there.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 01:07:37 AM
The fact of the matter - It's simply not true.

2+2 = 5

Discuss!
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: karajorma on August 16, 2009, 03:11:52 AM
Yeah, I'm for FS2 as well but Mobius's arguments are ridiculously weak.

I liked FS2 better because the story was something different. The FS1 storyline did give the game a sense of impending doom but at the end the rebels figure out about the exhaust port and take down the big bad before it can blow up the moon they're on...oh wait, I got confused...I mean they upload the virus from the Mac and blow up the mothership....oh wait.

The point I'm making is that although FS1 had an excellent story, it was a retelling of something we've seen in different guises many, many times before. Big enemy appears, old enemies have to work together to defeat it, eventually discovering an Achilles heel they can exploit.

FS2 on the other hand was something newer. The GTVA are arrogant about their previous victory over the Shivans and even after the first Sathanas they still don't get how outclassed they are. I found that alone to be a much more interesting story but once you add Bosch into the mix you have something very special.

Quote from: Mobius;119722
There's a link for everyone to check.

Where?
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: ngtm1r on August 16, 2009, 07:46:29 AM
What Kara said forthe link.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 11:10:36 AM
Is it sooo hard for you to check the FreeSpace Wiki and take a look at FS1's inconsistencies?

About the Ancients: so, at this point, we should blame FS2 for lacking the much needed info FS1 never had? The Ancients are a canon species, and what we know about them is very poor. The Ancient monologues, with their simple setting, seemed nothing but a cheap solution to a storytelling problem. Also, I find so hard to explain the differences between FS2 and FS1's features - how is it possible to add so many things and come out with revolutionary designs after only one year? In any other series I know, important additions have always been progressive. What does that tell you? Well, I don't know... but my opinion on the matter is that :v: did not turn FS1 into the game it should have been. The game's cutscenes, just to mention an example, were not in high quality - not even for the standards of that time. And the story? FS1's ending was so predictable, but people who haven't played Colony Wars and/or other similar games will find it original. (Just to mention how each player's gaming experience affects opinions.) Also, I hard believe players could find Bosch's true plans, the second Knossos, the Sathanas fleet and the final supernova as predictable aspects of the plot. You can't say the same of FS1's plot, which was much more predictable.

And it's quite funny for me to attract all of the flak even if I'm one of the very few FS2 purists who claimed, among other things, that FS1's atmosphere was superior to that of FS2. The point is that considering the good (atmosphere) and forgetting the bad (inconsistencies, predictable ending) is not correct.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: ngtm1r on August 16, 2009, 11:39:19 AM
Quote
Is it sooo hard for you to check the FreeSpace Wiki and take a look at FS1's inconsistencies?


Quote from: ngtm1r;119685
The wiki doesn't actually point out an unambigous insistance of such. Many of the node inconsistencies only exist once we got the full view in the Colossus cutscene, for example.


Quote from: ngtm1r;119672
Many of the inconsistencies only exist in comparison with FS2. To hold them against FS1 when comparing the games is not only patently unfair, but stupid. The inconsistancies should most likely be counted against FS2 and not FS1 because it introduced them.


You mean the ones we already shot down as mostly not FS1's fault? Repeatedly, if you count Kara doing so?
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 12:16:40 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119786
And it's quite funny for me to attract all of the flak even if I'm one of the very few FS2 purists who claimed, among other things, that FS1's atmosphere was superior to that of FS2. The point is that considering the good (atmosphere) and forgetting the bad (inconsistencies, predictable ending) is not correct.
It's because your arguments are constructed out of paper towels.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 12:25:20 PM
Actually, not. The Node map (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Node_map), for example, came before FreeSpace 2. V said the Node map released in 1998 should override the others, so I don't understand the whole "FS2 is the cause of most FS1 inconsistencies" deal. The second game of the series used that Node map, but the reasons behind that choice are pretty obvious.

You simply don't know, because the following has absolutely nothing to do with FreeSpace 2:

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Node_Inconsistencies

Quote
Used in First Strike (SM1-10). Admiral Wolf says that the Taranis has been chased from the Beta Cygni system back to the Ikeya system, and the Taranis is fleeing to the Beta Cygni node during the mission itself. It is very likely, however, that this is a mistake. The cutscene immediately preceding this mission (not to mention the official node map itself) shows that the only subspace node out of Ikeya leads to Ribos. Additionally, during the mission, Freighter Halkins tows the cruiser to Tombaugh Installation, which is located in Ribos. It is probable that the mission designer just confused Ribos with Beta Cygni.


Now tell me, how is this related to FreeSpace 2? You and karajorma haven't shot down anything because that quote clearly proves how FS2 is totally unrelated to that mistake. Also, it's quite funny how the Talania system has disappeared - had FS1 been a better game, we would have more info regarding Talania.


Sorry, but my point here is that a game with so many mistakes cannot be considered superior. To be honest, I have never seen so many inconsistencies in a game - useless to say that those inconsistencies affect my opinion, as I find mistakes of that kind a sign of not-so-good storytelling. This poll is about the games, not the storylines (in that case, I would have put FS1 and FS2 pretty much to the same level, with FS2 being only a few steps ahead), so considering mistakes is all but necessary if the analysis has to be complete and plausible.

If I really have to say more, I can focus your attention on FS1 fleets: warships were either cruisers or destroyers, and variety was incredibly poor. In fact, despite having different characteristics, the Fenris and Leviathan cruisers (not to mention the Cain and Lilith) were basically the same. FS2 added corvettes and various cruiser classes, thus turning the game's fleets into more plausible ones. Engine limitations have nothing to do with FS1's rosters, so the first game's handicap cannot be justified.

I would really like to know what your reply to these facts (not opinions) will be like - I'm pretty curious.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 12:31:59 PM
Actually, not. Take a look at the other post (which is currently waiting authorization).

Why is that post waiting authorization, by the way? Was it too long?
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119791
Actually, not. Take a look at the other post (which is currently waiting authorization).

Why is that post waiting authorization, by the way? Was it too long?
:doubtful:
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 01:07:57 PM
There's a quote from the Node Inconsistencies article in the Wiki. It mentions an error in the node map which contradicts FS1 itself. The official node map (which was designed later) and FreeSpace 2 don't have anything to do with it.

And since you seem to deny the evidence, take a look yourself:

Quote
Used in First Strike (SM1-10). Admiral Wolf says that the Taranis has been chased from the Beta Cygni system back to the Ikeya system, and the Taranis is fleeing to the Beta Cygni node during the mission itself. It is very likely, however, that this is a mistake. The cutscene immediately preceding this mission (not to mention the official node map itself) shows that the only subspace node out of Ikeya leads to Ribos. Additionally, during the mission, Freighter Halkins tows the cruiser to Tombaugh Installation, which is located in Ribos. It is probable that the mission designer just confused Ribos with Beta Cygni.


I posted other things in my post, and everything will become readable as soon as the whole post gets authorized. I don't need to rewrite the same thing again, so you just have to wait.

I guess posting more than one link (there were at least two in my post) triggers the need to get a post validated. Other than that, I don't understand why that post (and that post alone) is awaiting authorization.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 01:50:24 PM
[size=9]OH MY GOD NODE INCONSISTENCIES! THE GAME IS BROKEN! ALL IS LOST!!![/size]

:doubtful:
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: karajorma on August 16, 2009, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119786
Is it sooo hard for you to check the FreeSpace Wiki and take a look at FS1's inconsistencies?

Is it sooooo hard to admit you fucked up and forgot you hadn't actually posted a link. Actually don't answer, you wouldn't have tried that bombastic nonsense if it wasn't hard.


As for the node map, Have you ever considered that the node map published after FS1 came out also was after FS2 started development?
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 02:01:23 PM
FS1 also had poor variety in ship rosters. Warships were either cruisers or destroyers, and there were ships which shared the same model (Fenris/Leviathan, Cain/Lilith).

FreeSpace 2 has much more variety.

EDIT: I posted that (yeah, the Wiki) thingie instead of the link, and then forgot it. :lol:

Also, if you look at the previous post, you'd see how it's not only the node map to "cause problems". That quote clearly proves how FS1 contradicted itself. Feel free to claim whatever you want, but I find those errors and the nearly total lack of variety in ship rosters two major flaws of FreeSpace 1.

The discussion is about the games, not the storylines - in the first case I might have said that FS1 and FS2 are about to the same level. It's not the case of the actual poll, where inconsistencies and rosters also affect the quality of the game.

EDIT2: Oh, and I'd really like to know what happened to my hidden post.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 02:49:46 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119802
FS1 also had poor variety in ship rosters. Warships were either cruisers or destroyers, and there were ships which shared the same model (Fenris/Leviathan, Cain/Lilith).

FreeSpace 2 has much more variety.
Yes, but the FS1 ships had more coherence in design. FS2 didn't have any overarching design features, and the ships looked dreadfully uninspired from my point of view. Whereas in FS1, each species had certain distinct characteristics on all of their ships which gave a sense of uniformity which FS2 really lacked.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 03:04:55 PM
That still doesn't justify the presence of a very poor roster.

One question: why is coherence in design needed? Why should it be a good characteristic? Designs can be various so that players can prefer certain assets over the others. I think one of the reasons behind the GTF Perseus' success is the interceptor's particular design, which is different from the others.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 03:10:52 PM
Are you forgetting that FreeSpace 2 just happened to use a 90% of FS1's ship assets?


It's different building a fleet from scratch and expanding an already existent fleet.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: ngtm1r on August 16, 2009, 03:16:24 PM
I'm guessing Kara took pity on you in not replying, since he asked how low you would sink to nitpick. Now we know: you can find one single node inconsistancy that isn't a result of getting the full nodemap.

One.

I could pull out every time we introduced a new squadron in FS2 as an inconsistency it introduced, all the other node issues, Talania...yeah I think people get the picture here. This is a bad argument.

Quote
One question: why is coherence in design needed? Why should it be a good characteristic? Designs can be various so that players can prefer certain assets over the others. I think one of the reasons behind the GTF Perseus' success is the interceptor's particular design, which is different from the others.


Snail wasn't being very clear, to be fair, so he could in fact be referring to visual and not specification unity of design. (In which FS1 has FS2 sadly beat all to hell.)

However even assuming he's not , you're still spouting off thoughtlessly. He's referring to it across multiple ships. FS1 had a set of ships each well-suited to their individual roles. FS2 does not; the Perseus is a better space superiority fighter than the Myrmidon, the Myrmidon is a better assault fighter than the Herc 2...you get the idea. It's just not very rational.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 03:31:40 PM
NGTM-1R, I mentioned more than one node inconsistency in my "hidden" post. If someone decides to make it re-appear, continuing the debate would be easier. Also, I think there's a reason why I refuse to consider posts which don't add anything to the discussion and rather derail it by playing pranks.

I find your analysis of FS2's spacecraft a bit bogus, it's definitely not rare for a craft to turn out into an all-round versatile unit (which can do a lot of things). Also, don't forget that variety also implies the presence of apparently different assets which can do the same things. Are we close to claiming that the Myrmidon is so much batter than most bombers due to its ability to carry the Helios torpedo?

Don't forget the difference between absolute truth and opinion here - the evident lacks in FS1's rosters can be hardly justified and are not open to debate, as other games have more than twice the variety FreeSpace 1 had. On the other side, mentioning FS2's (supposed) missed coherence in ship design as a flaw is more an opinion than a fact, as you can't expect everyone to agree. It's not exactly like saying that out of the five cruiser classes seen in FS1, four of them were not original in the way they were handled. Calling the Azrael a freighter is not an error which is open to debates.

EDIT: There may be only a few embarassing inconsistencies in FreeSpace 1, so? They're still inconsistencies, and they're well enough to affect my opinion on the game. You surely can't force people to prefer a game over another even if these people simply can't tolerate inconsistencies in games.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 16, 2009, 04:05:48 PM
Mobius, if you can't distill your points down into a couple sentences instead of these multi-paragraph blobs of illegible blue text (could you PLEASE use normal font?), you're barely worth debating with.

Funny how you're already acting the same way that got you banned on HLP.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 04:11:57 PM
You should now already that I'm always wiling to join prolonged discussions. It's unclear wheter or not other people are willing to do the same. :p

Yet still, I keep my posts civil and clean and that's what, in my opinion, really counts. So far I don't see anything that is remotely comparable to an offense here, and the discussion is going nicely.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 16, 2009, 04:24:49 PM
It has nothing to do with the length or depth of the discussion. The problem seems to be that you fail to recognize the following truth:

You have made all your points clear to the opposition. They simply weigh those points differently than you. Repeating your points in dozens of new ways is not going to make them any more valid to them.

I'm fairly pro-FS2 and yet your points seem quibbling and irrelevant even to me.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 04:26:38 PM
This was never a good idea, honestly.


This discussion is never going to go anywhere. I'm never going to convince anyone FS1 is better and nobody is going to convince me FS2 is better.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 04:27:51 PM
Battuta: I'd rather reply to that via PM.

Snail: There's no need to convince the others, really. This discussion has strengthened my position in favor of FreeSpace 2. :P

But yeah, the main intent is to leave this as a poll which can be used for quick-consultation purposes to see what other community members think. It's more or less what I thought the poll about combat spacecraft should be. :)
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 16, 2009, 04:50:18 PM
That's absurd. This poll is in no way scientific.

The FreeSpace community is much larger than Game Warden or HLP. Citing any of these polls as evidence is farcical. They're nowhere near representative sample size and the population being sampled isn't randomly distributed.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 04:58:38 PM
I can say the very same thing of regular threads and talk pages, in which a much smaller number of people (usually, <10) decide what's correct and what's not. I have seen it happening too many times to be unsure of what I'm saying, so that's why I find polls a very good and democratic alternative.

Of course, no polls are supposed to be 100% reliable... but after a while, they can be considered a good approx. of what community members really think. Just to mention an example, we know from now that the GTF Perseus is an appreciated fighter design. We still can't claim it's the most loved design in FreeSpace, however.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 16, 2009, 05:39:37 PM
We can't make any claims. The n-value for the sample is too small and the sample isn't randomly selected.

Now, in many cases, decisions are made by those in authority - but that's very different from attempting to find out what the population as a whole thinks.

You often forget that you're not working in a democracy; the FreeSpace community is a meritocracy.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Rodo on August 16, 2009, 06:06:27 PM
soo... FS2 is wining?

I liked the "no shield combat" thrill on FS1 era, FS2 seems to be to overpowered with those shiny beams lurking around... I hate to see a destroyer vanish in a 1 minute (or so) battle, gush... you don't hate that?

I mean I HATED the Lucy, It was always there to fuck up my day.. but on FS2 the sathanas did not represent the same thing.. with all those destroyers out there, anyone could fuck my day as a pilot XD

Seeing the Sath was not like... OH MY GOD it's the sathanas.. I loose this mission again :S

more like... hell! the sathanas!!!! now what do we do command?

COMMAND???
do you copy?
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 06:10:38 PM
Battuta: Yeah, that's what it is and should remain: a meritocracy.

I was refering to generic threads, with no reference to authorities. Sometimes, it's only a handful of community members who decide which ship model should go and/or which theory related to the Universe is valid (these are examples). Polls, on the other side, are more "open" to all kinds of developments.

Rodo: Your point about the Lucifer being more prominent than the Sathanas is well thought.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 06:57:46 PM
Quote from: Mobius;119830
I was refering to generic threads, with no reference to authorities. Sometimes, it's only a handful of community members who decide which ship model should go and/or which theory related to the Universe is valid (these are examples). Polls, on the other side, are more "open" to all kinds of developments.
Those aren't examples. Those are hypotheticals, and are frankly completely meaningless.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 08:10:05 PM
Modeller A creates a new fighter, and posts a thread to see what other community members think of it.

Members B through E think the model is great while member F says it needs minor touchups.

Members B through E say that no one agrees with F, even if only 6 people partecipated to the discussion. F gets blamed for what he's saying.

Do you get what I mean? Polls are much more immediate and the fact that many members cast a vote without posting prevents confusing and discriminating discussions from taking place.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 08:42:19 PM
:doubtful:

That's not an example. That's another hypothetical.



But point taken.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mobius on August 16, 2009, 08:49:19 PM
A while ago, someone deleted his model due to a couple of comments so, well... I think there are many examples.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 08:50:50 PM
I remember that too. Those people were complete twats and didn't fucking appreciate what that guy was doing for this community.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: shiv on August 16, 2009, 08:55:27 PM
Who and what are you talking about?
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 16, 2009, 09:18:55 PM
There was a sketchup guy who was making a new Orion or something. Titan or someone said "THAT'S UGLY" and he got offended and deleted it.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: General Battuta on August 16, 2009, 09:52:55 PM
This is human nature, not some kind of problem with the FS community.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Rodo on August 16, 2009, 10:33:48 PM
Also, giving a shi* about what people say is a human nature, and in some cases it helps.
See.. my model is a frikking square, still I give a shi* about it because I just want to know I can finish a model, and I could have just lost my temper and go ahead and flame everyone that was saying that, but obviously that would be kinda pointless...
My point, there's times where you need to get involved, and there's other times where you need to just give a shi*

Some loose the temper to soon and too often, and I'm not buying the "human nature" thing.
Here and there... some times it just feels like a there's battle between two or three people, and it's kinda embarasing sometimes.
and sorry about saying the f word that much, hope you don't mind it.
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: peterv on August 17, 2009, 11:55:57 PM
Ah! I finally know what hapened to that exellent modeler SPECTRE87.
Isn't this a little bit of topic?

Also the poll is about "Which game of the series do we prefer" and not "Which game of the series is better beyond doubt". :hoppingma
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Snail on August 18, 2009, 01:03:10 PM
Quote from: peterv;119900
Also the poll is about "Which game of the series do we prefer" and not "Which game of the series is better beyond doubt". :hoppingma
Yeah. This is just a few people's opinion. FS2 winning this vote doesn't mean anything.

Also,
25 voters   ≠   The Whole Community
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Tantalus53 on August 19, 2009, 01:18:43 PM
Well, im purely an FS2 Faithfull... Coming over from The Descent series to Freespace, FS2 seemed to loon alot more attractive with its explosions, flak batteries, and beam cannons.. but aside from that, there are more subtle reasons i prefer FS2

I dont know if anyone else realised this, but, throught the FS1 Storyline, all the new weapons seemed to be getting developed /right/ then and there as you were playing (based on command briefings) Even the Medusa and the Herc were apparently developed and released to the player. Wheras, in FS2, Everything was developed allready (aside from... one, maybe two weapons) and were /authorised/ to the player by command as the game progressed. That made a big difference to me, made the game more believable.

Another reason, I felt like i could actually beat the shivans in Freespace two. That we actually stood a chance the entire game.. Untill all those sathanas' showed up and we lost all hope. Then the impending doom feeling set in. I think that sudden turn for Hopelessness is what grabbed me the most during FS2. In the end, we found a way to kill the Lucifer. We lived through it. But the Sathanas attacks? We had to /run/. And it left me thinking... 'What /can/ we do the next time they show up?'
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Mav on August 22, 2009, 11:30:02 PM
Well, in some way I like both very much (though I had stayed back for the last year , mostly for technical reasons :( and university) , BUT I really liked  the way that the FS1-campaign gave a credible feeling of being part of a force that's overwhelmed and encircled...

Of course, the Sathy fleet was positively scaring, and the FS2-cutscenes are great  -  actually just the same "we had a feeling we could defeat the Shivans throughout most of the game" that Tantalus53 feels positive, is what made me feel less involved during the FS2-campaign...

And concerning graphics atmosphere - that washed-out explosion shockwave from stock FS2 that looks somehow like algae was annoying me right from the start...
[edit: Oh, and to note that FS2 has the - in my view - worst ship design in the series - the Boanerges... :doubtful: ]


So, to conclude, my vote is for FS 1 . :cool1::yes:
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: shiv on February 06, 2010, 12:17:29 PM
Deinitely FS1 :P
Title: FreeSpace 1 or FreeSpace 2?
Post by: Lucika on February 13, 2010, 10:42:15 PM
FS1 fan. Forever.

I think I have only one thing to say regarding the atmosphere of the games:

Quote
Three minutes left.  Please, you must hurry!

versus
Quote
We've lost another transport! End this massacre now, pilots!


This was all that counted and still counts for me. Is humanity a stuck-up jerk or not?