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Hosted => Battlestar Galactica: Beyond the Red Line => Topic started by: Canadian on April 12, 2008, 03:05:37 AM

Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Canadian on April 12, 2008, 03:05:37 AM
So... raiders refuse to fight, centurions now have freewill. Did not see that coming.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angreifer on April 12, 2008, 03:08:35 AM
So far, Season 4 is starting out very strong. Baltar's seeing Head Baltar now, Starbuck gets her own ship to take back to Earth. And, most importantly in my opinion, the very thing the Cylons were trying to prevent is happening; their own machines are revolting. And we now know the Cavils are the 1's (sorry Kara, so much for your numbering theory :D).
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 12, 2008, 03:08:43 AM
Baltar is totally mad.
I just don't see any future for him but meds and long sleeved jackets.
Of course he was nuts, but now he is a friutloop.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 12, 2008, 03:10:26 AM
The Cavils would seem to be at forefront of Human annihilation.
Just curious if the Centurions will change their minds and go flat out after the humans now?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angreifer on April 12, 2008, 03:13:39 AM
I think the Centurions have some issues of their own to work out...you know, the whole new-found-sentience thing.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 12, 2008, 03:16:01 AM
I'm curious, I haven't seen one scene about Boomer & Helo's daughter Hera?
But they are both staring at the Chief holding a knife at the last supper image.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: wiley on April 12, 2008, 04:18:58 AM
Its a good thing that Galactica's booze supplies didn't suffer like the food supply did!
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Sparky on April 12, 2008, 04:21:33 AM
Quote from: Angreifer;97013
And, most importantly in my opinion, the very thing the Cylons were trying to prevent is happening; their own machines are revolting.



Well of course.  Have you ever gotten close enough to smell one? :lol:

I missed part of the dialogue between Baltar & Baltar (Sounds like it would make a great law firm, by the way; could give Lampkin a run for his money.), but as I understood what was said, it sounded like Head Six was actually Head Baltar in disguise the whole time.  It was this that reminded me of a bizarre hypothetical question I pondered recently.  If you build a time machine, go back in time and meet yourself (or in this case, encounter an imaginary version of yourself projected by your subconcious), and then decide to have sex with yourself, does that count as gay sex, or just high-tech masturbation?  Because either way, Baltar's been doing it with himself from day one.  :wtf:

Not to mention all those times six talked about having babies.:wtf::wtf:


Not that I'm building a time machine in my basement or anything like that...

:nervous:
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angreifer on April 12, 2008, 04:47:21 AM
I don't think Head Baltar is Head Six. Baltar asked Head Balter, "Are you number 6 in disguise?" and it responded something like "Why would I need to disguise myself?" So, the message to me was, they're two seperate entities.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: David cgc on April 12, 2008, 04:49:18 AM
Quote from: Sparky;97026

it sounded like Head Six was actually Head Baltar in disguise the whole time.


Quite the opposite, actually. Baltar asked Head-Baltar if he was just Head-Six in some sort of disguise, and Head-Baltar pointed out reasonably that Head-Six has no logical reason to need to disguise herself from Baltar, before turning the conversation back to Tory. Also, Head-Baltar's personality seemed different than Head-Six's, but was a good match for Caprica-Six's Head-Baltar's personality, which seems to suggest that the two of them are seeing the same Head-Baltar. Which leads me to wonder if and when Head-Six and Caprica-Six will meet.

I loved that Baltar's reaction to seeing a new invisible person giving him advice was not surprise, but exasperation. At this point, I'm beginning to think nothing can shock him any more. Back in "Home, Part II," Baltar almost had an infarction just because Head-Six washed her make-up off, and now he just shrugs off the fact that he now has an invisible doppelgänger. It goes along with his panicky speech in "A Measure of Salvation," (yes, I should've told you about the artifact, but I was worried you'd think I meant for it to happen, which you do think, so I guess I was right...) where he's realized the sort of things fate puts him through, and he's just sort of going with it at this point,
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angreifer on April 12, 2008, 04:53:29 AM
Quote from: David cgc;97028

I loved that Baltar's reaction to seeing a new invisible person giving him advice was not surprise, but exasperation.


What's more amusing than Baltar? Two Baltars talking to each other. Absolutely classic.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Slamscape on April 12, 2008, 04:57:52 AM
You know RDM put in the lines about the numbering to make all the fans happy. Now we pretty much have the order and final cylon numbers

1. Cavil
2. Leoban
3. D'anna
4. Simon?
5. Doral?
6. Caprica..etc
7. Final 5
8. Sharon
9. Final 5
10. Final 5
11. Final 5
12. Final 5
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: FusionStorm on April 12, 2008, 05:06:00 AM
You know what would be funny, if the final cylons aren't cylons at all, just the humans that created them and made modifcations to themselves. The could have repressed their memory.

Although this is coming from a guy who hasn't watched an episode in years.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Sparky on April 12, 2008, 05:47:46 AM
I hadn't thought about the order 'till now.  Anybody notice that there seems to be a distinct pattern?

Firstly, all but one of the five are at the very end of the list.  The one that isn't is only seperated from the other final 5 by the Sharons.

Secondly, the seven appear that they could be ordered by apparent age, although it's hard to tell.  The Five are a different bag altogether.

Thirdly, it seems to me that their numbering seems to coincide with their devotion to one thing or another.
  The Cavils are obsessed with themselves, narcisitic even.
  The Leobens are the most spiritual, listening for God the the words of hybrids.
  The D'annas are perhaps the most militant, although Baltar "broke them, so to speak, so the entire line got boxed.  You did see the tiniest hint of doubt in her before New Caprica, when she was trapped with Caprica, boomer, and Anders.  She was about to kill him when she exclaims, "God loves me!", even if somewhat nervously, as if she was desperatly trying to reaffirm her faith.
  We typicaly don't see much of the Simons, but he did agree to give information to the colonials in exchange for medicine in A measure of Salvation, suggesting that he might be less of a diehard than some of the others.
  Doral was a hard liner for the most part, but again, he seemed to have no qualms about being saved from the Virus.  Also back in Seasin One, we see him talking to a Six about love, and he seemed almost misty eyed about the idea of feeling emotions like a Human.
  Six: need I say more?  They Feel emotions, they disagree with each other and this episode portayed just how divisive they can be with the other models.
  Sharon is probably the most insecure of the Seven.  They have not one, but two traitors among them (If you count this episode).  Even the Head Six claimed that her model was weak.

And I think that the Final Five's relative position on the list says even more, perhaps indicating the reason they were boxed in the first place?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: blowfish on April 12, 2008, 06:12:33 AM
We have no reason to believe that they were boxed in the first place.

And I think you're looking too hard at the order of that list.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Turey on April 12, 2008, 06:19:07 AM
Quote from: Angreifer;97029
What's more amusing than Baltar? Two Baltars talking to each other. Absolutely classic.


That was my favorite part of the episode. I was laughing so hard.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: blowfish on April 12, 2008, 06:20:27 AM
Baltar has truly reached a new level of insanity. (or god is talking to him or something...)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: wiley on April 12, 2008, 06:34:28 AM
Looks like the Cylons are in for civil war and perhaps the colonials will have a batch of raiders and centurions of their own.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Lepton on April 12, 2008, 06:43:28 AM
I don't know who is doing the writing this season but the dialog is awful and acting is about a match for that.  This episode has none of the crispness of even episodes in the first season when one might have expected things to be less settled.  Scenes that would have been handled simply with a few words are now spilling over and bloated. While some of the plot developments are interesting, I think the show has totally gone off the rails.  And the Baltar/Baltar thing is just the next installment of the writers jumping the shark.  I remember when this show was dry, dark, and atmospheric.  Now, it's overwrought, silly, and downright nonsensical.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: wiley on April 12, 2008, 06:53:37 AM
Quote from: Lepton;97045
I don't know who is doing the writing this season but the dialog is awful and acting is about a match for that.  This episode has none of the crispness of even episodes in the first season when one might have expected things to be less settled.  Scenes that would have been handled simply with a few words are now spilling over and bloated. While some of the plot developments are interesting, I think the show has totally gone off the rails.  And the Baltar/Baltar thing is just the next installment of the writers jumping the shark.  I remember when this show was dry, dark, and atmospheric.  Now, it's overwrought, silly, and downright nonsensical.


This sounds like a review of The Sarah Jane Adventures.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 12, 2008, 09:17:38 AM
Enjoyable episode in my opinion. A lot of information was disclosed, too. Centurions and Raiders first and foremost... I can't help but wonder what the Centurions' role will be in further episodes. If I'm not much mistaken, they are now on the same level as they were in the First Cylon War, so to whom do their allegiance belong to, and what motivates them?

Will they work for the three skinjobs that were against lobotomizing the Raiders? Or will they have their own agenda (to destroy humans? if not, what?) and they will only work with any skin jobs as long as their agendas match?

And what's up with the "no hurting their own", clearly the Centurions don't have much qualms about hurting the three skinjob models... although they did "hurt" the Raiders first.

Equipping a separate (volunteer-based) survey team to find a way to Earth based on Starbuck's gut feeling was, of course, the immediate solution to the dilemma of finding out what Starbuck's Adventure was about, without risking the safety of the whole fleet. Glad to see they finally figured it out...

Although, I so want to see Eddie Olmos say "It's a Trap!" in the Combat Information Center at least once in the series... :lol:

Questions answeres, and just as many answers questioned. I've liked the two episodes so far, and I don't agree with Lepton's analysis of acting and dialogue being weaker than before... different perhaps, but they have worked for me thus far. Though some of the dialogue was a bit hard to hear for some reason in this episode. Might be that English is not my native language.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: docfu on April 12, 2008, 11:21:10 AM
Ok, here is how I look at the first two episodes of the season:

Episode One: The writers realized they really frakked up their show from the end of season two through season three, they decided to have everyone in the series go ballistic(especially Starbuck) because its exactly what they felt when they realized they were stupid enough to have listened to their sponsors on how to write the show(being that they wrote a bunch of standalone episodes.)

Episode Two:

The director, played by Adama, realized he really frakked up killing off Starbuck then bringing her back, he's desperately trying to believe he had some kind of plan in all of this, but realizes he really can't justify what he did.

The producer/sponsors are played by Roslin who keeps reminding Adama that miracles actually don't happen and if he goes against her will she'll cut off his booze/funding (and his source of booty.)

The Cylon meeting is actually what happened in a meeting of the writers of the show. Half of the writers want to stick to the formula show the way it was originally made, the other half are getting sick of the same old bullshit and want to shake things up before the last episode. I'm not sure what happened in real life but the cylons slaughtered each other so it must've been a pretty good smiting.

Finally we have the actors/rest of the people who have no say about what happens in the show, played by everyone in the show and are either:

A. Like the revealed Four, trying to figure out just what the frak is going on.

or

B. Realize that God is pulling all the frakking strings and that they are helpless so they keep frakking the night away (aka Baltar and his harem.)

I wonder what episode 3 will have...
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 12, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
If you really believe that RDM killed Starbuck and then realised he'd made a mistake only two episodes later and brought her back I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. :p

Quote from: Angreifer;97013
(sorry Kara, so much for your numbering theory :D).

Actually it still holds to a degree. There are four numbers all next to each other and one apart from the rest.

It's also worth pointing out that every single sleeper has been in the last 6 somewhere. The other Cylon agents in the fleet knew what they were.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: newman on April 12, 2008, 12:23:44 PM
Great episode, season 4 is really starting out great. Gotta love the poetic justice at the end - have your own Cylon revolt, bitches :)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angreifer on April 12, 2008, 03:59:54 PM
[spoiler]Based on the preview of Episode 3, I'm thinking the Centurions are going to side with the three that were against lobotomizing the Raiders. There was a brief clip where a 6 instructed a Centurion to do something, and then appended the command with a "please". And kudos to the in-house team, because I swear that Centurion managed to look surprised.[/spoiler]

EDIT: Sorry boss, thought because the preview was essentially part of the episode that it belong here. Wont do it again though.

Oi! Trailer comments go in either spoiler tags or the 4x03 discussion thread! - Karajorma
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angelus on April 12, 2008, 04:07:13 PM
Quote from: Angreifer;97087
[spoiler]Based on the preview of Episode 3, I'm thinking the Centurions are going to side with the three that were against lobotomizing the Raiders. There was a brief clip where a 6 instructed a Centurion to do something, and then appended the command with a "please". And kudos to the in-house team, because I swear that Centurion managed to look surprised.[/spoiler]

Will be interesting to see how Deanna ( the boxed 3 ) will fit into all this.
I guess they will unbox her now, and since she's the one who is trying to find out who the final five are, i think she will side with the "rebells" ( 8,6,2 ).

Is it just me or does it looks like Cally is gonna die, because she discovered the true identity of the final 4 ( 3, from the trailer it didn't look like chief Tyrol was there )? Ey, pitty...
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: David cgc on April 12, 2008, 04:15:33 PM
Not only did she overhear three of the four, it seems she overheard them saying that Tyrol was also a Cylon.

And it is Cally. As I saw on another forum, she was probably voted "Most likely to die with her husband in a murder/suicide" in high school.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 12, 2008, 04:18:29 PM
Next person to post a spoiler from the trailer gets a week off. I'm fucking livid at some of the thoughtlessness shown by the last 3 posts.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Enki on April 12, 2008, 04:20:37 PM
Quote from: blowfish;97037
We have no reason to believe that they were boxed in the first place.

And I think you're looking too hard at the order of that list.


I agree, I don't think they were the ones boxed.  Leoben spoke of them reverentially, mentioning them as if they were ancient beings "What their eyes must have seen.  Witnessed over time."

The Hybrid mentioned a new group of eight and cutting the fuze, they will not harm their own.  That might be the Twos, Threes, Sixes and Eights, plus the current four of the final five being the biological future. Which would also explain the increased dimensionality reference for evolution. The fuze I think references removing the Centurions inhibitors so that the others may not harm their own.

And Wow!  The Cavil line is a blunt instrument for all that it believes about it's brain. Not to mention perverted and fatally obsessed with Boomers breasts.   But the Sixes.  Holy. Fried. Monkey. Testicles. Batman.   That is a level of cold, calculated, ruthless, I don't play fair I win--see if you scorn this bitch again attitude seldom seen.  An atomically sharp scalpel severing the rotten head of control from the Cylon fleet in one smoothly delivered phrase.  I thought Leoben believed, but he's a mere altar boy compared to how Six Believes.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 12, 2008, 04:22:48 PM
If they are all Cylons then Starbuck isn't the final Cylon :D

Something like "She will lead Humanity to their doom, she is not to be trusted" was what the Hybrid had said.
I'm curious how that is going to be worked into all of this.
I'm glad they decided to do the smart thing and actually send out a team to go with Kara to seek Earth.

With Baltar being quite mad now, Schitzophrenic to say the least,
he will be the key figure for some really interesting turns in the entire outcome.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 12, 2008, 04:24:34 PM
One interesting point that comes to mind now that the Centurions can think. Didn't Six say that they keep older model Centurions around for certain duties in the mini-series? Were they lobotomised too? If not, what were they doing with them? If so are they getting their higher brain functions back now?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Enki on April 12, 2008, 04:29:01 PM
Quote from: Herra Tohtori;97061
Enjoyable episode in my opinion.

Questions answeres, and just as many answers questioned. I've liked the two episodes so far, and I don't agree with Lepton's analysis of acting and dialogue being weaker than before... different perhaps, but they have worked for me thus far. Though some of the dialogue was a bit hard to hear for some reason in this episode. Might be that English is not my native language.


I agree, the dialog has been far deeper and psychologically warped. I found it much better than last week's episode--which wasn't bad either.  Kudo's also for the new dramatic shot angles used for some of the ships.  Making some of those standards feel a bit different.

On the dialog I agree.  Even for an english speaker I gave my tivo a workout to catch a whole grunge of Baltar's lines and I still can't grok one of them while he was doing Tori.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: kristofori on April 12, 2008, 04:30:03 PM
I love the discussions on here. Just discovered Btrl and I'm excited to play it.

I think the episodes of the new season have been phenomenal! Just to see where everyone has ended

 up shows how much everyone has grown and changed. Laura is questioning her faith, bill is gaining some,gaius has accepted he's gone bonkers and six has instigated mutiny. I think its fantastic with what they're doing and I don't doubt the writers or producers a bit.

And yeah, I loved the way the centurions looked at each other when they walked in with six. Can't wait to see what happens!
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 12, 2008, 04:36:49 PM
Welcome aboard Kris!
The 4th season is awesome so far.
Right now I would find it pretty hard to beleive there could ever be any dissapointment.
Anyone saying it has gotten weaker is seriously full of issues noone cares about.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Slamscape on April 12, 2008, 04:38:44 PM
When the hybrid says they won't harm their own, shes referring to the raiders turning away from attacking the fleet, I believe it comes up again when the the cylons are discussing the final five
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Sparky on April 12, 2008, 04:46:34 PM
Quote from: karajorma;97094
One interesting point that comes to mind now that the Centurions can think. Didn't Six say that they keep older model Centurions around for certain duties in the mini-series? Were they lobotomised too? If not, what were they doing with them? If so are they getting their higher brain functions back now?


Actually it was more like:
Quote

Baltar: "I'm sorry, but the last time anyone saw the Cylons they looked more like walking chrome toasters."
Six: "Those models are still around.  They have their uses."



From this conversation, its hard to tell whether she was refering to the old-school Centurions, or the fact that they still have the mechanical variety around at all.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: wiley on April 12, 2008, 04:49:13 PM
The hybrid said some other things too. "Transformation is the goal" and Reduce or cut "the atmospheric nitrogen by 0.03%". Maybe they find a planet but it needs a nudge.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 12, 2008, 04:49:55 PM
The older models were expressive with the Hybrid.
So I beleive they can and will be visible.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Lepton on April 12, 2008, 06:04:08 PM
Anyone think that it is exceedingly odd that all of the revealed Final Five had ample opportunity to come face to face with the non-skinjob cylons during the Occupation, but were never recognized by them as Cylons.  One will certainly offer the argument that the Final Five were not activated or conscious of their identity, etc; however, when Anders encounters the raider, he is in no way conscious of communicating with the raider.   He is not consciously initiating the action.  

So if it's an inherent ability beyond conscious control, why has it not activated in the past?  If its activation and use is not conscious, how does the character's awareness of his or her identity have anything to do with it?  Frankly, I don't buy the "activation" argument.  The music was a very conscious choice to do something breaking the fourth wall/meta in the storytelling which I loathed.  The Ancients/Lords/Thirteen Tribe did not choose to activate the Final Five with some lame version of the "On the Watchtower" that could have only come into existence in the equal lame period after the 90s.

And lest someone point to Boomer being "activated", everything that Boomer did she was nearly totally unconscious of.  When the bombs were placed in "Water", she wakes up not knowing where she is or what she has done.  She places a bomb on her own raptor and nearly detonates it to avoid detecting the water.  She is not aware of who is she or what she is doing.  So her "activation" is nothing like this other supposed "activation" of the Final Five.  

So whatever external or interior process that triggered this conscious realization for the Five, it seems at odds with the fact that the basis of the recognition by the raider was a process that involved no conscious, volitional action or awareness.  In other words, it's bull.  The writers were like:

"Dude, we need to put the other cylons in the story for fan service and give them some fan service name like the Final Five."

"Man, how are we going to do that?"

"Hey, let's just like turn them on with some emo remake of a classic rock song that shows we are like totally going meta here.  How po-mo would that be??!!!"

"Dude, you are on the right track there.  Then every week we can have the characters act like a bunch of fanbois discussing their theories on web forums.  The viewers will love it and it will like mixing all that high brow/low brow stuff that I heard of in college once."

"But, Dude, wait.  Who are these Final Five going to be?  I don't want to write another set of backstories for a whole new set of characters!!"

"No, Dude, no.  We just use existing characters that everyone already knows.  That makes it easy and it will really screw with everyone watching the show.  They'll be like 'Dude, NO WAY!!'"

"Yeah, yeah, that will be F'ing awesome.  Awesome, dude."

Pause.  Pause.

"But wait.  If we use existing characters and make them Cylons, how come the other Cylons never recognized them before?  That doesn't make sense."

"Dude, no problem, it's because like they were never turned on before.  And now we are turning them on for the fan service.  The whole thing explains itself."

"Wow, that's F'ed up.  We're gonna flip the switch and everything these people were and did will be called into question.  What a mind f___!"

"Dude, it's gonna be awesome!"



Hey, hey, BSG!!  How many sharks did you jump today??!!
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 12, 2008, 06:30:52 PM
It makes a good story :p
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: David cgc on April 12, 2008, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Lepton;97114

"Hey, let's just like turn them on with some emo remake of a classic rock song that shows we are like totally going meta here.  How po-mo would that be??!!!"


You know, once upon a time, I thought the word "emo" actually meant something. Luckily, now I understand that it's simply used as a catch-all term for "lame" regardless of whether or not something is actually unjustifiably pretending to be depressive, its constant misuse is a bit less grating. It's like how "gay" can be used as a pejorative without actually implying that something is related to homosexuality.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 12, 2008, 06:41:49 PM
Quote from: Sparky;97103
From this conversation, its hard to tell whether she was refering to the old-school Centurions, or the fact that they still have the mechanical variety around at all.


I'm referring to the bit in the mini-series where the Colonial officer is looking at spec sheets for the Centurions on Armistice station. She quite clearly is talking about the old model.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Sparky on April 12, 2008, 07:29:23 PM
Yes, but the six on Armistice Station was not Caprica Six, and considering that no one had seen the Cylons in over 40 years, Colonial intel on them was outdated to say the least.  I don't see how either of those events had to do with the other, though.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 12, 2008, 07:49:19 PM
Quote from: Sparky;97127
Yes, but the six on Armistice Station was not Caprica Six, and considering that no one had seen the Cylons in over 40 years, Colonial intel on them was outdated to say the least.  I don't see how either of those events had to do with the other, though.


Who the hell said it was Caprica Six?

And I don't see what hell you're on about anyway. Re-read my original post now that you know what I was on about.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Roy Fokker on April 12, 2008, 09:01:29 PM
Quote from: Lepton;97114
So whatever external or interior process that triggered this conscious realization for the Five, it seems at odds with the fact that the basis of the recognition by the raider was a process that involved no conscious, volitional action or awareness.  In other words, it's bull.


Did you ever consider evaluating events in the show according to the set of rules established , or at least hinted at, by the writers themselves, instead of what YOU alone think things should be? For the millionth time:

- we have no idea what the Final Five are like, except that they're Cylons. They don't know themselves, the regular models don't know, only the Cylon God knows, and perhaps the final Cylon model.

- it has been established that, somehow, in the BSG universe, time repeats in regular cycles, which is a religious explanation for something which will turn out to be the Big Reveal of the entire show. According to this, everything happens for a reason, the future can be predicted and every single individual has a role to play at a specific place in space and time. The Four that were "awakened" by Bob Dylan lyrics are only now serving their purpose. Is it so hard to imagine, especially after accepting transfer of consciousness, glowing spines, and similar plot elements, that the Final Five (or at least Four) are: 1) unique, 2) age like humans, 3) were 100% impossible to tell apart from humans before activation, and 4) are now detectable by Cylons, through the same "psychic" link that has already been established as something Cylons have?

Of course, there's nothing that guarantees we'll get satisfying answers and explanations for all this by the end, but saying it doesn't make sense so far is bull.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on April 12, 2008, 09:07:12 PM
My feelings on this episode are currently mixed.

What I enjoyed, although I'm not sure that even the writers are completely conscience of it, is that we essentially ended up with a Cylon civil war over how they interpret their own infant religion.  Six did what she did because she was diametrically opposed to their initial programming that they were not even to think about The Final Five.  Which is a strange thing, to say the least--if they weren't to think about The Final Five, then why were they made to know about their existence at all?  

I'm quite worried that they are not going to adequately explain the Cylon Religion, which they've said very little about to begin with.  This bothers me because it allows the writers to simply conjure up some shocking "revelation" that isn't really shocking because we have no reference point to contrast how "shocking" it supposedly is.  If we knew more about their religion, then there'd be more of a base for us to react to.  I was somewhat surprised when the Centurians opened up on the skinjobs, but I'm currently more bewildered by how's it possible for any Cylon to bypass its programming?  

Emotions or not, "soul" or not, code is code, isn't it?  So how can a skinjob violate it?  I believe that the rebellious skinjobs are correct in being very concerned about the ultimate significance of the Raiders stopping their attacks on the human fleet, but how could that train of reasoning "derail" their coding?  

It rightfully didn't derail The #1s, and if I remember correctly he more or less stated his disbelief that The Final Five were in the midst of the fleet, and even if they were, it didn't matter; you are not to think about them.  You simply follow the code because it's, well, The Code.  

Also, why would the Raiders have access to "extra thinking capacities" that the Centurions have had purposely suppressed?  Doesn't this imply that even these lowliest of Cylon "tools" have "souls" too?  It's certainly strongly implied by Six's cold statement to #1 at the end, when she asks him to reflect upon how the lobotomizing of the Raiders made them "...feel..."    

It's these kinds of unexplained elements that are starting to annoy me instead of keeping me intrigued.  These open ended references (programming/coding, religious, and otherwise) to fundamental controls of Cylon society seem to me to be a device that's being used far too often, and they are quickly losing their impact as a result.  In short, I'm starting to fear that just like the X-Files' endlessly open-ended and twisting/turning "Mulder's sister alien abduction" storyline, the material is being made up as it goes along instead of staying true to a concise vision and plotline, and as a result it's falling apart.

The Cylons already know what The Rules are that supposedly govern their society, yet we, the viewing audience are purposely kept oblivious to them, until it's time for a storyline.  The fact that Boomer "voted against her own model #" is supposed to be shocking, because (cue "gasp" here) that's not supposed to ever happen.  The convenience of this pattern is starting to worry me, especially after reading Lepton's excellent and concise summary of his concerns regarding how The Final Five were somehow able to be kept hidden, not only to themselves, but even to the hordes of Cylons that surrounded them.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up on the show, but by necessity, Moore and his gang have to come up with a believable answer to all of this convolution, or else otherwise we'll be left looking at the X-Files in space, at which point I will abandon this show, and never look back.

Of course that isn't going to keep me from playing this brilliant game!  

:p
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Elthis on April 12, 2008, 09:14:39 PM
I had a sort of revelation (or a crazy idea) watching this last episode as to who the Final Cylon is.
 
NOTICE: I cannot find the spoiler tag. What I'm about to say, even though speculation, could prove to be a spoiler. Please disregard my post if you have not seen Razor or the beginning of Season 4.
 
[spoiler]What is Starbuck isnt a cylon at all. (Which is my belief)
 
In Razor, the Hybrid said Kara Thrace would lead humanity to it's end. When he said that, what if he was referring to her role in helping them find earth and permanently settle on it, I.E. the END of their journey through space.
 
Now to my speculation as to who the final Cylon is.....
 
I believe that Laura Roslin could very well be the final cylon, whether she knows it or not. And that her confidence in knowing that they are on the right way to earth is a trick by her or other Cylons to distract them from following Starbuck towards the true direction to Earth.[/spoiler]
 
At least thats my theory. Thoughts anyone?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on April 12, 2008, 09:19:27 PM
Quote
Of course, there's nothing that guarantees we'll get satisfying answers and explanations for all this by the end, but saying it doesn't make sense so far is bull.


There's a simple rule in writing anything that deals with fantasy/science fiction: it must be consistent with its own rules in order for the reader/viewer to be able to suspend/maintain suspension of disbelief.

It's hard to see any consistency when we, the viewers, are deliberately kept at bay in regards to knowing things that should be essential for our understanding.  And I'm not talking about trying to solve a mystery here, where information is deliberately obscured and slowly revealed as a part of its genre.  While there are mysteries in BSG, what viewers such as myself are concerned about is more than that.  So many "fundamentals" in regards to Cylon society are left missing that it's almost becoming meaningless when something "big" happens to them on a societal scale.  There are way too few established reference points, and that is more than enough reason to be concerned with what's happening story wise.  

I am more than happy to have my concerns proven wrong in the end.  But the X-Files-ish features I'm starting to get nervous about need to be soon addressed.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Seeker on April 12, 2008, 09:52:03 PM
These are my guesses as to the whole enchilada....

Be warned...they are JUST guesses based on nothing more (and perhaps far less) then what was seen so far.  I may be a babbling idiot...but I have to tell someone!


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  OK.....Starbuck is gone maybe with Lee and a few others.  She is going to find some damn find planets to live, but how will she get back to the fleet if it keeps moving on under the laura?  Well, she won't.  They are going to settle in and reform the 12 colonies just like before (she said it was like going home!).  It ain't Earth, but it's good enough for Lee and her.  She'll write it all down for the future generatios, as best she can using all the names like Baltar, Boomer, Starbuck, Cassiopea, Athena, etc.  It will become the new culture and be messed up a bit over time.

  The fleet will go on, and be led under one dynamic personality - Baltar as the One God with Laura in agreenment(?) (or as a Cylon!).  They will be led to destruction and the BSG will crash on a planet.

  The cylon centurians will clean house wiping out the new 'human' models.  They will follow BSG to its death and lose track of Starbuck's group.  However, they will find their one true god - whom they will call The Imperious Leader.  It will be Baltar or Laura...probably Baltar, becasue he has a british accent (the only one to boot) and that throat wound will end up making his voice sound a lot like Patrick McNee.  He will change his name to Iblis, prior to the crash.  He will extend his life through injections from the many hybrids (it worked for laura) and it will alter him.

  The beings of light will reveal themselves to have saved Starbuck to begin with and will protect the new founded colonies until thier maturity.  

  Then many years later, it will happen again, and Adama and the BSG will go off looking for the lost tribe int heir legends (the fleet led by bill Adama).   They will find Kobol (Again) and find the planet where the first BSG crashed and so on and so on.  



...or not....
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: wiley on April 12, 2008, 10:51:58 PM
Quote from: Roy Fokker;97141
.....Stuff

- it has been established that, somehow, in the BSG universe, time repeats in regular cycles, which is a religious explanation for something which will turn out to be the Big Reveal of the entire show. According to this, everything happens for a reason, the future can be predicted and every single individual has a role to play at a specific place in space and time. ,,, More stuff .


This is also another item related to Greek mythology and the 12 olympians: Time is tracked not linear but in cycles as well. Just a thought.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Lepton on April 12, 2008, 11:08:07 PM
One interesting thing that came out of this episode is that the raiders and the centurions are apparently sentient, but whose higher functions have been repressed for some reason.  This seems a bit at odds with my impression of Boomer's speech about what the raiders are like.  She treated and spoke about the captured raider as if it were a wild animal, like a tiger in spaceship.  This makes me wonder if Caprica Six is now supposing them sentient because they chose to not attack the Five or if they were sentient all along.  I have come to loathe the idea of sentience in our dealings with other living things and in science fiction in general.  I tend to cringe when I here the word "sentient" spoken on a sci-fi show as I know we are descending into the speciesist/humanist baloney that equates rights with some form of human consciousness.

I think it would be far more interesting if the raiders were not considered "sentient" and that Caprica Six was lobbying for their rights out of something more than their status to "choose" or to recognize the Five, more like an essential recognition of the rights of all living things.  That is how I chose to view it at the time although I am well aware that the sentience issue puts as squarely back in the humanist realm of ethics.

Be that as it may, I think the show makes very little sense thus far and I would mirror much of what the other poster said what a clear reference points.  These long story arc shows have fallen into this pattern of establishing mysteries and giving the viewers things to mull and speculate on without ever thinking how or why one might resolve any of these mysteries.  I would point to Lost of course.  There hasn't been more mystery and confusion in a TV show since Twin Peaks.  And if you see JJ Abrams' address at TED you will see that he is actually more interested in presenting mysteries without resolving them.  He likes the magic, not showing you how the trick is done.  BSG certainly falls into this category of mystery making without much sense.  It might be cool and crazy if angels started flying out of Baltar's butt but it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

I'll give you a similar case with another RDM production.  DS9 and the Emissary.  When DS9 started, I was really psyched about the whole Emissary angle.  I thought that we would be treated with some real comparative religion stuff, a real fleshing out of another world's culture.  What we got was largely a plot device that allowed inter-dimensional beings to lay the smackdown on the Dominion.  Whoopdeedoo!  But every so often, we'd have some show that featured an Emissary angle and it gave the show and that character of Sisko some patina of possibility or coolness but it bore no real fruit and in the end the resolution of the Emissary arc was wholly unsatisfying and nothing was ever really adequately explained.

In BSG, we have gone to the extreme.  Now, there is so much mystery, so much possibility, so much meaning in any gesture or word that anything could happen, but nothing makes any real sense.  And we are left to speculate and spin our own webs and nothing could ever possibly be an adequate outcome at this point, because so much has been left open to interpretation that anyone who has dared to think about what is going on is going to be disappointed at how it plays out in the end.

I have to say that I was wholly disappointed with this Final Five thing.  It was poorly executed and my first reaction was "So, is there anyone left on this show who isn't a Cylon?"  It was no revelation.  It was no explanation.  It was just a twist for the sake of a twist that actually undermines much of what has happened in the entire series.

At this point, there is no way that they could end this show that would satisfy the fans who spin all these crazy theories, and those who watch just to watch are getting a lot of shocks and twists that I don't think make a lot of sense.  The first season of this show, while it had any number of one-offs, was much better than this. Things may be more flashy, crazy, dramatic now but I don't think that makes them any better.  I really want to spit anytime I hear a character say "The Final Five".  This is pure fan service/ breaking of the fourth wall/the worst of post-modern guff.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Enki on April 12, 2008, 11:41:02 PM
Quote from: Lepton;97114
Anyone think that it is exceedingly odd that all of the revealed Final Five had ample opportunity to come face to face with the non-skinjob cylons during the Occupation, but were never recognized by them as Cylons.  One will certainly offer the argument that the Final Five were not activated or conscious of their identity, etc; however, when Anders encounters the raider, he is in no way conscious of communicating with the raider.   He is not consciously initiating the action.  

So if it's an inherent ability beyond conscious control, why has it not activated in the past?  If its activation and use is not conscious, how does the character's awareness of his or her identity have anything to do with it?  Frankly, I don't buy the "activation" argument.  The music was a very conscious choice to do something breaking the fourth wall/meta in the storytelling which I loathed.  The Ancients/Lords/Thirteen Tribe did not choose to activate the Final Five with some lame version of the "On the Watchtower" that could have only come into existence in the equal lame period after the 90s.

And lest someone point to Boomer being "activated", everything that Boomer did she was nearly totally unconscious of.  When the bombs were placed in "Water", she wakes up not knowing where she is or what she has done.  She places a bomb on her own raptor and nearly detonates it to avoid detecting the water.  She is not aware of who is she or what she is doing.  So her "activation" is nothing like this other supposed "activation" of the Final Five.  

So whatever external or interior process that triggered this conscious realization for the Five, it seems at odds with the fact that the basis of the recognition by the raider was a process that involved no conscious, volitional action or awareness.  In other words, it's bull.  The writers were like:


The only thing I know that is lamer than fanbois is trolling for them. If you don't like the show.  Don't watch.

If you don't like the show but like the game, stay and participate in the game discussions.  

But save us your superior sense of everything plot-line please.  You just don't happen to get it and that's fine.  But you are dangerously close to trolling for trolling's sake with a post like that.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Enki on April 12, 2008, 11:57:45 PM
Quote from: Kyle_K_ski;97142
My feelings on this episode are currently mixed.

What I enjoyed, although I'm not sure that even the writers are completely conscience of it, is that we essentially ended up with a Cylon civil war over how they interpret their own infant religion.  Six did what she did because she was diametrically opposed to their initial programming that they were not even to think about The Final Five.  Which is a strange thing, to say the least--if they weren't to think about The Final Five, then why were they made to know about their existence at all?  

I'm quite worried that they are not going to adequately explain the Cylon Religion, which they've said very little about to begin with.  This bothers me because it allows the writers to simply conjure up some shocking "revelation" that isn't really shocking because we have no reference point to contrast how "shocking" it supposedly is.  If we knew more about their religion, then there'd be more of a base for us to react to.  I was somewhat surprised when the Centurians opened up on the skinjobs, but I'm currently more bewildered by how's it possible for any Cylon to bypass its programming?  

Emotions or not, "soul" or not, code is code, isn't it?  So how can a skinjob violate it?  I believe that the rebellious skinjobs are correct in being very concerned about the ultimate significance of the Raiders stopping their attacks on the human fleet, but how could that train of reasoning "derail" their coding?  

It rightfully didn't derail The #1s, and if I remember correctly he more or less stated his disbelief that The Final Five were in the midst of the fleet, and even if they were, it didn't matter; you are not to think about them.  You simply follow the code because it's, well, The Code.  

Also, why would the Raiders have access to "extra thinking capacities" that the Centurions have had purposely suppressed?  Doesn't this imply that even these lowliest of Cylon "tools" have "souls" too?  It's certainly strongly implied by Six's cold statement to #1 at the end, when she asks him to reflect upon how the lobotomizing of the Raiders made them "...feel..."    

It's these kinds of unexplained elements that are starting to annoy me instead of keeping me intrigued.  These open ended references (programming/coding, religious, and otherwise) to fundamental controls of Cylon society seem to me to be a device that's being used far too often, and they are quickly losing their impact as a result.  In short, I'm starting to fear that just like the X-Files' endlessly open-ended and twisting/turning "Mulder's sister alien abduction" storyline, the material is being made up as it goes along instead of staying true to a concise vision and plotline, and as a result it's falling apart.

The Cylons already know what The Rules are that supposedly govern their society, yet we, the viewing audience are purposely kept oblivious to them, until it's time for a storyline.  The fact that Boomer "voted against her own model #" is supposed to be shocking, because (cue "gasp" here) that's not supposed to ever happen.  The convenience of this pattern is starting to worry me, especially after reading Lepton's excellent and concise summary of his concerns regarding how The Final Five were somehow able to be kept hidden, not only to themselves, but even to the hordes of Cylons that surrounded them.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up on the show, but by necessity, Moore and his gang have to come up with a believable answer to all of this convolution, or else otherwise we'll be left looking at the X-Files in space, at which point I will abandon this show, and never look back.

Of course that isn't going to keep me from playing this brilliant game!  

:p

All this is just happening again.

Advanced autonomous systems have to do a certain amount of learning capability built in.  The result of that learning does not change the original programming, but it can create new unforeseen patterns of computation which we call emergent behavior. And emergent behavior can create bypasses of previously believed to be sacrosanct programming because it isn't given a chance to execute.

Apparently the Raiders were given more autonomy than the Centurions because spatial combat requires it, also because the Raiders aren't a long term threat if fuel and rearming is withheld.  Athena also said once that the Raiders would learn to become better warriors via their reincarnations after getting shot down, and allowing the ability to learn removes the ability to control EXACTLY what IS learned.  Learn enough and if the basic processing framework is compatible, almost anything is possible.

Same thing happens with the Centurions who must be wholly mechanical, since it was a "device" which kept them from becoming sentient even though they have the hardware and software specs for it.

As for talk of the final Five and the unprecedented actions within the Cylon Fleet, we are seeing those unforeseen effects of emergent behavior and the "Creators/Oppressors" are now the targets of a rebellion of previously enslaved created beings.  

It is happening again.  

No odd plot devices needed, no unbelievable aspects if you accept the metaphysical psychological aspect of what is going on.  Lepton just doesn't get it, he's not right about anything jumping the shark or being contrived.  He just plain doesn't get it, which is OK, not everyone has to.

Quote from: Kyle_K_ski;97146
There's a simple rule in writing anything that deals with fantasy/science fiction: it must be consistent with its own rules in order for the reader/viewer to be able to suspend/maintain suspension of disbelief.

It's hard to see any consistency when we, the viewers, are deliberately kept at bay in regards to knowing things that should be essential for our understanding.  And I'm not talking about trying to solve a mystery here, where information is deliberately obscured and slowly revealed as a part of its genre.  While there are mysteries in BSG, what viewers such as myself are concerned about is more than that.  So many "fundamentals" in regards to Cylon society are left missing that it's almost becoming meaningless when something "big" happens to them on a societal scale.  There are way too few established reference points, and that is more than enough reason to be concerned with what's happening story wise.  

I am more than happy to have my concerns proven wrong in the end.  But the X-Files-ish features I'm starting to get nervous about need to be soon addressed.

I agree with the first part, I disagree that the show is internally inconsistent.  Personally I find the majority of the first two episodes to be far more deep in the mythos of the show.  I have seen surprising things, but they have all been motivated well by the end of both episodes.  While there are lots of new questions cropping up in unexpected directions, they don't come up for me as contradicting what I have though about the previous three seasons of mythos.

As for "hiding" parts of Cylon society, that is a necessary evil.  Too much was being explained in Season Two and those explanations were taking the edge off the Cylons.  Making them seem far less machine-like and making too many "weird tech" revelations necessary. Keep going down that road and we just have a Star Trek replacement and end up needing geeks to write tech manuals for the next twenty years.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Lepton on April 13, 2008, 12:01:52 AM
One thing I find troubling is that one of the Co-Executive Producers was given the writing credit for this episode, Michael Angeli,  whose writing credits thus far have been some somewhat minor episodes "The Son Also Rises" and "The Woman King" and is also given a writing credit for a mid-season cliffhanger episode entitled "Revelations".  The later revelation I find a source of concern.  He entered the show as a co-exec around the time of "The Occupation" and before that he was co-exec on a little show called "Medium".  Ouch!

I have no idea how writing credits are given out, but the less this guy can have to do with this show the better, if this is emblematic of his work.

And as a response to the above, all this "All this has happened before" crap is merely a device to give the patina that something cool is happening.  It all seems meaningful if it's cyclical, but the fact is that we do not even know what happened before, in what details or in what manner they happened.  If you go on the Sci-Fi.com boards you will find as many loopy theories on what the Cylons are, what the rebellion means, the Thirteenth Tribe, the Lords of Kobol, yada, yada, yada, as you can shake a stick at.  The fact that so many differing points of view can proliferate is indicative of how unclear things have been made on the show.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Enki on April 13, 2008, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Lepton;97162
One interesting thing that came out of this episode is that the raiders and the centurions are apparently sentient, but whose higher functions have been repressed for some reason.  This seems a bit at odds with my impression of Boomer's speech about what the raiders are like.  She treated and spoke about the captured raider as if it were a wild animal, like a tiger in spaceship.  This makes me wonder if Caprica Six is now supposing them sentient because they chose to not attack the Five or if they were sentient all along.  I have come to loathe the idea of sentience in our dealings with other living things and in science fiction in general.  I tend to cringe when I here the word "sentient" spoken on a sci-fi show as I know we are descending into the speciesist/humanist baloney that equates rights with some form of human consciousness.

I think it would be far more interesting if the raiders were not considered "sentient" and that Caprica Six was lobbying for their rights out of something more than their status to "choose" or to recognize the Five, more like an essential recognition of the rights of all living things.  That is how I chose to view it at the time although I am well aware that the sentience issue puts as squarely back in the humanist realm of ethics.

Be that as it may, I think the show makes very little sense thus far and I would mirror much of what the other poster said what a clear reference points.  These long story arc shows have fallen into this pattern of establishing mysteries and giving the viewers things to mull and speculate on without ever thinking how or why one might resolve any of these mysteries.  I would point to Lost of course.  There hasn't been more mystery and confusion in a TV show since Twin Peaks.  And if you see JJ Abrams' address at TED you will see that he is actually more interested in presenting mysteries without resolving them.  He likes the magic, not showing you how the trick is done.  BSG certainly falls into this category of mystery making without much sense.  It might be cool and crazy if angels started flying out of Baltar's butt but it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

I'll give you a similar case with another RDM production.  DS9 and the Emissary.  When DS9 started, I was really psyched about the whole Emissary angle.  I thought that we would be treated with some real comparative religion stuff, a real fleshing out of another world's culture.  What we got was largely a plot device that allowed inter-dimensional beings to lay the smackdown on the Dominion.  Whoopdeedoo!  But every so often, we'd have some show that featured an Emissary angle and it gave the show and that character of Sisko some patina of possibility or coolness but it bore no real fruit and in the end the resolution of the Emissary arc was wholly unsatisfying and nothing was ever really adequately explained.

In BSG, we have gone to the extreme.  Now, there is so much mystery, so much possibility, so much meaning in any gesture or word that anything could happen, but nothing makes any real sense.  And we are left to speculate and spin our own webs and nothing could ever possibly be an adequate outcome at this point, because so much has been left open to interpretation that anyone who has dared to think about what is going on is going to be disappointed at how it plays out in the end.

I have to say that I was wholly disappointed with this Final Five thing.  It was poorly executed and my first reaction was "So, is there anyone left on this show who isn't a Cylon?"  It was no revelation.  It was no explanation.  It was just a twist for the sake of a twist that actually undermines much of what has happened in the entire series.

At this point, there is no way that they could end this show that would satisfy the fans who spin all these crazy theories, and those who watch just to watch are getting a lot of shocks and twists that I don't think make a lot of sense.  The first season of this show, while it had any number of one-offs, was much better than this. Things may be more flashy, crazy, dramatic now but I don't think that makes them any better.  I really want to spit anytime I hear a character say "The Final Five".  This is pure fan service/ breaking of the fourth wall/the worst of post-modern guff.

Sentience is merely the ability to perceive subjectively and know of the perceptions.  [Websters Dictionary - responsive to or conscious of sense impressions ].  If you will stop trying to judge the world on some internal set of rules and join society in common definitions you won't have as difficult time of it.

Your whole thesis is based on some feeling that a false humanism is being shoved down your throat in SF.  Well it's not.  it's real humanism and the whole genre is about forcing humanity to think about itself by using allegory and metaphor based in technology and or the future.  It's easier on the reader/viewer and far less threatening to expose the underbelly of humanity in a SF context than a current lit context.

SF is not about explaining anything.  It is about making you think.  And great stories never explain everything, they always leave you room to extrapolate.  Often those who feel left behind are those who extrapolated too much too early and the story unfolded along a different line.  When that happens many things the viewer/reader think about events become confusing because their earlier assumptions are inconsistent with the plot-line.  

I don't know if that is where you are or if you just don't get it. I accept you don't like it and find that a bit unfortunate, but oh well.  I find your set of objections to be seriously flawed though.  A view of BSG through filters which no show could possibly survive. You do write fairly well though so there is hope for you yet.  :)

Quote from: Lepton;97168
And as a response to the above, all this "All this has happened before" crap is merely a device to give the patina that something cool is happening.  It all seems meaningful if it's cyclical, but the fact is that we do not even know what happened before, in what details or in what manner they happened.  If you go on the Sci-Fi.com boards you will find as many loopy theories on what the Cylons are, what the rebellion means, the Thirteenth Tribe, the Lords of Kobol, yada, yada, yada, as you can shake a stick at.  The fact that so many differing points of view can proliferate is indicative of how unclear things have been made on the show.

No it's just indicative of too many folks with too much time on their hands. Don't try to read too much into the most rabid of fans, they are too close to the tin-foil hat crowd.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: ngtm1r on April 13, 2008, 04:35:51 AM
Quote from: Kyle_K_ski;97142

Emotions or not, "soul" or not, code is code, isn't it?  So how can a skinjob violate it?  I believe that the rebellious skinjobs are correct in being very concerned about the ultimate significance of the Raiders stopping their attacks on the human fleet, but how could that train of reasoning "derail" their coding?  


This violates a premise of sentient behavior. That's the annoying thing about us. We can choose to do crazy stuff, because we're sentient. So can the Cylons then.

In essence you cannot hard-code something into a being and still call it sentient. This is why we have people who kill kids, despite the fact it goes against a hell of a lot of human biological "code" to do so. Or, put another way, you can, but it being a sentient being, it can work out a way around it given the time or circumstances necessary. That is pretty much necessary for it to be called "sentient".
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angreifer on April 13, 2008, 04:58:27 AM
I would like to point out a key flaw in the claim that there are too many questions and not enough points of reference. That flaw is that the show is not yet finished. It is down right maddening to be left with question upon question at the end of an episode, and very easy to feel like all the show is doing is throwing random miracles at you in the hopes of keeping your attention. But I would never consider discounting a storyline until the final curtain call. Is it so hard to believe that all will be answered one way or another by the end of this season? It would be one thing if the show was canceled before RDM and the writing staff were ready, like with Firefly, but they've planned for this to be the final season. RDM is far from being a lunatic and I am confident that, like the Cylons, he has a plan.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on April 13, 2008, 05:08:10 AM
Alright, I've had a good measure of hope restored by the explanation of how coding can become modified/conflicted once new data is introduced into the matrix.  

It's kind of like "2001 A Space Odyssey."  To this day, I'm surprised at how many people keep missing its central thesis.  The most common interpretation one hears regarding it, is that the movie is about how a computer runs amok, betrays and kills its human crew.

No.  It's.  Not.

The heart of the story is that HAL could not rectify the human capacity for lying and deceit.  Remember, a computer can only process what it has been programmed to handle.  HAL wasn't capable of juxtaposing its mission goals with the deceit he had to confront: deceit that was delivered at the hands of humans.  His primary mission was to preserve the mission to Jupiter (Saturn in the novel) at any cost.  Once the lies were fumbled about, HAL did all that it could do as defined within the parameters defined for it, and the result was the tragic loss of the crew.  I don't blame HAL for its decision at all.  Humanity betrayed HAL long before HAL betrayed its human crew.  The real villains were the incompetent humans that forced it to take on more than it could handle: but how the hell can one ever hope to take on human deceit in all of its forms?  

That said, while I appreciate your detailed response, Enki, the crux of the problem remains: it's your response, and not that of BSG's writers.  And I'm certainly not looking for Star Trek's pained pseudo-scientific "every other sentence" explanations, and I'm not looking for everything to be laid out on a silver platter for me, as that's boring, but why don't they throw in statements of conjecture to at least put plausible postulations out for the masses to consider.  That would give at least a little more direction, and help develop the consistent reference points I mentioned earlier, even if they're "soft" in their nature, and not explicitly defined.


And Seeker, while I haven't had the time to think through every nuance of your list of predictions, I do highly admire it for its breadth of scope.  If BSG unfolds in a similar fashion, then the show is even more of a tragedy than I thought, and could prove to be one of the most poignant and moving endings ever put to screen.

We'll see in time, won't we?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: guitarfan01 on April 13, 2008, 05:45:20 AM
Well, the cylons are making their plan up as they go along.  Pretty obvious, that. ;)

But I agree with Angrifier's most recent post: I think RDM (and Eick, and Verheiden) knows where he's going with this.  How he's going to get there, I think, is a little less defined (except in that most of the episodes are already written, of course).  It's obvious that things haven't been entirely to plot so far (as Helo was originally going to be a one-shot character, disappearing after the mini, and the idea of Boomer = Cylon was added in post production on the mini, if I remember the commentary right.  Not to mention they had no idea where the Helo/Sharon Caprica scenes were going in the first place)

To be on topic, I have to say that the Baltar-Baltar scene was fantastic.  I laughed all through the commercial break, and today while I was driving along, I just started laughing again over the hilarity of Two Baltars.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 13, 2008, 07:04:54 AM
Quote from: guitarfan01;97189
Well, the cylons are making their plan up as they go along.  Pretty obvious, that. ;)


That's the way we do things lad, we're making shit up as we wish...

What is with the Cylons, remember in the day
They looked like normal actors that were dressed in toaster parts
Now they look - and feel - like human, and they had a plan,
but being human caused their plan become some made up shit.

:lol:
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: DaMercury on April 13, 2008, 12:41:26 PM
OK..................So there is so many more questions that need to be answered now. Will will get the answers???? probably some but i fear not all!

I really dont know where they are going with the show now. Cylon vs Cylon, Humans that have been so defined as Human (Tigh and the chief) are now Cylon, good twist but HOW???

One thing that has really got me tho, if the Cylon radiers and baseships refuse to fight does that mean good bye to anymore space combat?? That would be a really big loss aslo good luck in finishing BTRL with out a final showdown!

I guess we will have to wait and see and hope our fears are answered
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: TESLA on April 13, 2008, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: Kyle_K_ski;97184
Alright, I've had a good measure of hope restored by the explanation of how coding can become modified/conflicted once new data is introduced into the matrix.  

It's kind of like "2001 A Space Odyssey."  To this day, I'm surprised at how many people keep missing its central thesis.  The most common interpretation one hears regarding it, is that the movie is about how a computer runs amok, betrays and kills its human crew.

No.  It's.  Not.

The heart of the story is that HAL could not rectify the human capacity for lying and deceit.  Remember, a computer can only process what it has been programmed to handle.  HAL wasn't capable of juxtaposing its mission goals with the deceit he had to confront: deceit that was delivered at the hands of humans.  His primary mission was to preserve the mission to Jupiter (Saturn in the novel) at any cost.  Once the lies were fumbled about, HAL did all that it could do as defined within the parameters defined for it, and the result was the tragic loss of the crew.  I don't blame HAL for its decision at all.  Humanity betrayed HAL long before HAL betrayed its human crew.  The real villains were the incompetent humans that forced it to take on more than it could handle: but how the hell can one ever hope to take on human deceit in all of its forms?  

That said, while I appreciate your detailed response, Enki, the crux of the problem remains: it's your response, and not that of BSG's writers.  And I'm certainly not looking for Star Trek's pained pseudo-scientific "every other sentence" explanations, and I'm not looking for everything to be laid out on a silver platter for me, as that's boring, but why don't they throw in statements of conjecture to at least put plausible postulations out for the masses to consider.  That would give at least a little more direction, and help develop the consistent reference points I mentioned earlier, even if they're "soft" in their nature, and not explicitly defined.


And Seeker, while I haven't had the time to think through every nuance of your list of predictions, I do highly admire it for its breadth of scope.  If BSG unfolds in a similar fashion, then the show is even more of a tragedy than I thought, and could prove to be one of the most poignant and moving endings ever put to screen.

We'll see in time, won't we?


Hmmm sounds like a Cylon sympatiser to me!

OUT THE AIRLOCK WITH YOU!!!!!


Who knows maybe HAL is the first Cylon, the red dot for the eye????
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on April 13, 2008, 03:28:26 PM
Tesla,

lol, I hadn't thought of HAL's one red eye being a precursor to the Cylons' eye.  

Quote
Hmmm sounds like a Cylon sympatiser to me!


Busted!  Will you let me take a deep breath before you put me out the airlock though?  If I'm really really lucky I'll find that my body comes to rest against the airlock of another ship, and I can open it up through the craft's exterior manual controls.

I saw it in a movie once.  It could work for me too!
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on April 13, 2008, 03:40:40 PM
On another note:

I wonder if the missing fifth skinjob was identified today?  Remember when Roslin's round missed Starbuck's head, and it buried itself in the picture frame behind her beautiful blond head?  Well that round buried itself in Admiral Adama's shoulder in the photo, and considering how adamant Roslin was that she wouldn't hesitate to shoot a Cylon, it makes me wonder if we were being given a not so subtle tip, especially in light of what Leoban whispered in her ear oh so long ago...

Just wondering...
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Asraniel on April 13, 2008, 04:56:54 PM
I think many don't see the thing i have seen since a long time. but, WARNING, i'm quite sure that what i will write is right, so if you don't want to ruin the surprise, don't read.

Everything is repeating. The humans are in fact cylons. But it's easier to explain this the other way around.

The cylons will get their free will in the next episodes. The humans and cylons will eventualy make peace, and create a new species. (ok, i was fast on that part). And then, settle down on a planet and life there a long time. With time, the history will be lost, after thousands of years, nobody knows that they are infact cylon/human hybrids, create "new" cylons, and everything starts from the beginning.

When keeping that in mind, everything makes sense. The humans won't die, but only a few are left. The cylons won't die either, they have evolved too far, they are nearly humans. Multiple cylons are in peace with the humans, the others will follow, or declared obsolete models. In the model numbering you see the patern that, the higher the number, the more human like they are. The only logical outcome is that humans and cylons will become one species (and we have seen that creating a child is possible).

So, for me everything makes perfect sense, and i can't wait to see what happens next.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Prutus on April 13, 2008, 05:07:12 PM
I liked the Apollo retiring scenes. on brig, on ready room, on hangar deck.

But is it sure that Helo will go with kara? Helo has been both XO and GAG. If saul starts drinking or etc, who will be XO, and if helo leaves, no GAG.

Apollo retired, Starbuck and Helo go find earth, Kat dead. It leaves... Racetrack, Athena, Hotdog, Showboat? Those are imo the 4 mostly shown pilots left. (exept Anders)

For athena, i would say no, And racetrack was her ECO in some point, I think no for her too. Hotdog?
I hope they will rice some new charcter as gag. Or then they wont show much flight operations... which would be sad.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 13, 2008, 05:11:47 PM
Sorry I just can't beleive how far off this is getting.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Roy Fokker on April 13, 2008, 05:22:58 PM
Quote from: Prutus;97247
Apollo retired, Starbuck and Helo go find earth, Kat dead. It leaves... Racetrack, Athena, Hotdog, Showboat? Those are imo the 4 mostly shown pilots left. (exept Anders)


I was thrilled to see Narcho got speaking lines again... I'm a big fan of Sebastian Spence (ever since First Wave) and it's good to see some attention on him again.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 13, 2008, 05:33:27 PM
Yeah I wondered if he was going to end up getting more air time.
Good actor, seems like a level headed flight jock, may end up working his way up through the ranks.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Ace on April 13, 2008, 06:43:10 PM
Quote from: Prutus;97247
But is it sure that Helo will go with kara? Helo has been both XO and GAG. If saul starts drinking or etc, who will be XO, and if helo leaves, no GAG.


CAG not GAG... I'm very tempted to make some twisted jokes about what you thought Helo's duties were...
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Shootout on April 13, 2008, 07:15:10 PM
Quote from: Asraniel;97244

The cylons will get their free will in the next episodes. The humans and cylons will eventualy make peace, and create a new species. (ok, i was fast on that part). And then, settle down on a planet and life there a long time. With time, the history will be lost, after thousands of years, nobody knows that they are infact cylon/human hybrids, create "new" cylons, and everything starts from the beginning.

When keeping that in mind, everything makes sense. The humans won't die, but only a few are left. The cylons won't die either, they have evolved too far, they are nearly humans. Multiple cylons are in peace with the humans, the others will follow, or declared obsolete models. In the model numbering you see the patern that, the higher the number, the more human like they are. The only logical outcome is that humans and cylons will become one species (and we have seen that creating a child is possible).


Perhaps it's less straightforward than that: we know humanity left Kobol because of some hitherto-unknown 'calamity,' or clash with the gods, whoever or whatever they may be. Perhaps the human/cylon conflict is simply a repetition of the human/god conflict archetype, with the process of the exodus and the events involved being repeated.

Between Lee's conversation with Big Adama in 'He That Believeth..' and the identity of four of the final five (especially Tigh) being what they are, I think the assertion that humanity and the Cylons will make peace at some point is a given. And, I suppose, by extension, they may become one unified people somewhere down the line as well, but whether or not that all will come to fruition before the end of season 4, I'm less sure about.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 13, 2008, 08:48:00 PM
:wtf: Sort of sets up "Caprica" as part of the loop, so it may not be history but what happened after they made it to Earth.... ;)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Werthead on April 13, 2008, 09:01:45 PM
Quote from: Slamscape;97030
You know RDM put in the lines about the numbering to make all the fans happy. Now we pretty much have the order and final cylon numbers

1. Cavil
2. Leoban
3. D'anna
4. Simon
5. Doral
6. Caprica..etc
7. Final 5
8. Sharon
9. Final 5
10. Final 5
11. Final 5
12. Tyrol


Fixed :)

Aaron Douglas said in an interview that he is #12. And Doral was confirmed as #5 in Downloaded.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Star Dragon on April 13, 2008, 09:47:46 PM
Quote from: Enki;97169
SF is not about explaining anything.  It is about making you think.  And great stories never explain everything, they always leave you room to extrapolate.  Often those who feel left behind are those who extrapolated too much too early and the story unfolded along a different line.  When that happens many things the viewer/reader think about events become confusing because their earlier assumptions are inconsistent with the plot-line.


How many "Great Stories" (aside from X files) contradict viewer revealed information?

I like having to think, but what's the point of having something that simply makes arguments? Is that supposed to be insightful or meaningful? I call that poorly planned out.

If we are not meant to know certain information - Then don't tell us! (DUH) But don't present something and then say "you interpreted it wrong." Ok (dumbass) how the hell are we suppose to interpret it then? Maybe you're the flawed one and just don't know how to express yourself so others can fraking understand you??? :confused1

Otherwise it makes the writing look flawed (not brilliant). True while RDM thought he had a whole other season and had to dump it so while there is a time constraint, that does not address all the inconsistencies he brought on his story.


We were told the rules to Cylon society from the Cylons themselves. If they are wrong then we really do not know anything until the very end, if there is no closure at that point (the BIG reveal) how will that make you feel?

I for one will be greatly disappointed at how a story started of strong and apparently went no where at the end.

I got a gripe with the whole Cylons giving up power to skinjobs. What's to stop one Centurion from removing the device from another? "Programming?"

How the hell did skinjobs take over Cylon society from the superior Mechanicals? Didn't THEY have built in programming to serve THEM?

The majority of these issues with the story center on the Cylon "God".
It has become the corner he wrote himself into. Either it will be explained or it will never make any fraking sense.

And if everyone (or many) are Cylons anyway what was the whole genocide thing about??? Nothing?

At least Bulletheads taking down skinjobs was a step in the RIGHT direction! (hoorah!)

BTW: Are supposed to be shocked about a rogue Eight? Sorry to burst your bubble but what the frak show have you been watching?

For like 2 years ATHENA (Sharon, an Eight) has gone against her model, and kills them (no resurrection possible). "This has never happened before!"
Bullshit... Once again it's like he's forgetting things he wrote earlier we take as canon.

I really took the two Advertisements to heart:
"What the Frak is up with BSG!"
"All will be revealed."

I sincerely hope saying number two is more than just a marketing gimmick. Despite everything I started out hating the Concept of NBSG and yet when I finally sat down it won me over. It's the damn writing that's killing it for me just like Enterprise. (Good idea, shitty execution), however they don't have Manny Coto to come in and save the day. Unfortunately it was like 2-3 episode before they were to be canceled anyway.


If any of you need a reference of a good sci fi show that accomplished most of it's objectives and presented itself in a gritty, dark, yet humorous way then you need to sit down and watch SAAB (Space Above and Beyond). It covered many of the points RDM tried to make and did it well. It built upon earlier episodes and didnt try to mindfrak you constantly.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: TESLA on April 13, 2008, 09:55:42 PM
Quote from: Kyle_K_ski;97234
Tesla,

lol, I hadn't thought of HAL's one red eye being a precursor to the Cylons' eye.  



Busted!  Will you let me take a deep breath before you put me out the airlock though?  If I'm really really lucky I'll find that my body comes to rest against the airlock of another ship, and I can open it up through the craft's exterior manual controls.

I saw it in a movie once.  It could work for me too!


what film was that again, that sounds familiar?? Aliens???


Hmmm i feel arguements brewing in this thread......

Im going to sit back have a beer, and watch some Father Ted or South Park
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Star Dragon on April 13, 2008, 09:58:56 PM
Tesla, if you mean suitless, then it probably was "Event Horizon", much more realistic than SG-1's brief stint exiting a 302 to get in range of a Teltak's ring transporter near Jupiter...

Not to mention Tyrol and Cally had that little jaunt in season 3...
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: newman on April 13, 2008, 10:15:51 PM
No, the movie in question is 2001: A Space Odissey. Much more realistic then Event Horizon. The scene in question is Bowman getting back aboard the discovery without his space helmet, so he uses his pod's arm to open up the airlock before he shoots himself into it.
They also use the exterior controls to open up that same airlock in 2010. Anyone who doesn't know these movies has no business calling himself a scifi nerd.. :)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Roy Fokker on April 13, 2008, 10:38:29 PM
Quote from: KewlToyZ;97255
Good actor, seems like a level headed flight jock, may end up working his way up through the ranks.

A very good actor indeed... could happen. He's a veteran already, racked up a pretty good number of kills on the Pegasus roster.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: David cgc on April 13, 2008, 11:51:27 PM
Quote from: Star Dragon;97295
BTW: Are supposed to be shocked about a rogue Eight? Sorry to burst your bubble but what the frak show have you been watching?

For like 2 years ATHENA (Sharon, an Eight) has gone against her model, and kills them (no resurrection possible). "This has never happened before!"
Bullshit... Once again it's like he's forgetting things he wrote earlier we take as canon.


Context matters. Natalie was talking very specifically about Cylons democratically making decisions as a society. I somehow doubt that Athena's been filling out her absentee ballots for Cylon Referenda since she abandoned their cause and went on the run with Helo. She said that she disconnected herself from the Cylon psychic network, so she never would've had the opportunity to take part in any Cylon votes once her views changed, and even if she did, it's doubtful that they'd count her vote as that of a competent, loyal, functioning member of Cylon society.

Sure, it would've been more accurate to say, "No current member of Cylon society has ever voted against her model in a formal referendum," instead of, "No Cylon...," but that's ungainly and everyone at the table knew what Natalie meant.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: macgeek96 on April 14, 2008, 12:41:11 AM
I personally think that Baltar is the last Cylon.  And I really want to see what happens when Kara takes (or tries to) take that garbage ship to Earth.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on April 14, 2008, 01:29:09 AM
Newman nailed it correctly twice.  :yes:  The films/books I was referring to was 2001 and 2010.  Although if I recall correctly, I read a couple of "science fiction done science right" articles before, and they said that if anyone was ever to be in that situation, taking a breath/hyperventilating prior to entering vacuum would not be a wise decision.  I can't remember the exact reason why--I think that it had to do with the air in one's lungs exerting outward pressure once one was in vacuum.  I guess we'll know the answer for sure if I ever get spaced.  :wtf:

Anyway, I hope that tempers don't get too heated around here.  I think that it's becoming clearer and clearer that there are longstanding devotees of BSG who are starting to get nervous about all of the loose ends, especially in light of this week's episode.  I think that it'd be unfair to paint such worriers (including myself) with a broad brush and say that they're making things too complicated, that they're missing the simplicity of the story, that they need everything spelled out for them, or that they should have confidence that the writers have everything all figured out.

Comments such as these serve no purpose, as they don't address the expressed concerns.  They tend to "attack" the messenger and not the message.  I don't fit any of the descriptors listed above, and while none of these have really been directed at me per se they have been used on others, many of who take a lot of time to carefully compose their thoughts, and who also make points of one degree of validity or another.  If one were to compile a master list of the best of these concerns, one would come up with a pretty sizable list, which in itself should cause concern.  

I haven't devoted years of my life to a show just so I can complain about it.  My time is far too limited to permit something like that.  But I'm finding that starting with the last third of season three, that with every episode I keep seeing the long spooky shadows of Mulder and Scully being cast in the corridors of the Galactica and its pursuing basestars.  I want, badly, for there to be another series other than Babylon 5 to stay true to a well plotted, consistent, persistent and executed storyline, with a powerful beginning, middle and end.  Babylon 5 fell short of having a powerful end, but that was due to circumstances well beyond Straczynski's control.

There is just so much up in the air right now, and every week there's more being tossed up, and it's hard to imagine that all of it is going to be settled in a credible manner.  

But the irony of all of this is that the best line that I can think of to summarize my current state of mind is:
I want to believe.

Strange that!

:)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angreifer on April 14, 2008, 05:20:00 AM
It still seems like many of the so-called "worriers" are counting their chickens before they're hatched. I'm seeing a persistent theme of nervousness related to the number of aspects of the story that are unexplained, and an irrational fear that just because it's not understood right now, it'll never be explained. Please, I urge you, patience. The season has just begun, let it flesh out. You can go back to worrying when we've hit the mid-season cliffhanger if your questions are still largely unanswered.

And as to many of the claims of inconsistencies in regards to the Cylons...based on the claims made, I believe all of it is explainable by going back and observing how the Cylons act. While many aspects of Cylon society are not explicitly explained (such as the voting process), the majority of their society is insinuated. It's been stated by the actors before that they have a Cylon source book that explains essentially everything, so I think it's safe to assume that things aren't exactly being made up as they go along.

EDIT: Also, I don't think I remember ever seeing such discord among the fans on this forum in regards to the show. Perhaps the Cylons aren't the only ones having a civil war?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: CooperHawkes on April 14, 2008, 05:56:19 AM
Quote from: Angreifer;97337

EDIT: Also, I don't think I remember ever seeing such discord among the fans on this forum in regards to the show. Perhaps the Cylons aren't the only ones having a civil war?


right, but ever since kara "died" i thought: plz, plz dont blow this show with some idiotic explanation like "its a wormhole" or, if you think about the original series, "creatures of light" or whatever they are called.

there is so much going on right now, there are so much loose ends...

kara could be a cylon, baltar could be one. if they are not, how to explain their situations? is baltar just crazy? is kara just... an angel? a godess?

i just have to quote another member: i want to believe. i want to believe the WRITERS have a plan. i want to believe, that this show wont blow it, like many others ive seen before. i want to believe...
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 14, 2008, 06:39:56 AM
What has always made me laugh is that people who praise the great Series 1 writing seem to assume that they wrote in the Head Six character with no idea of who she was. The idea that the writers might actually not put in something as major as Head Six without a clear idea of what she was doesn't seem to occur to these people. :lol:

As for infighting and worrying about nothing, we've had it for years. I still remember the "Black Market was rubbish! BSG was once a good show but it's shit now!" idiocy from a couple of years back. It was obviously complete nonsense as that episode was followed by some really good ones and the whole Pegasus storyline was only an episode or two earlier.

It's the same thing now. Take a tiny little thing, (like a single lower than average quality episode in that case) blow it completely out of proportion, turn it into a reason to dislike the writing and then run around screaming that the sky is falling in.

Look at the example of Boomer voting with Cavil. The shock isn't that she voted against her models. The shock is that the others can't see a reason why she voted against her models. Athena is a traitor. The others know why she is a traitor, she fell in love with Helo.
  But why is Boomer voting the other way? Is she a traitor too? Is this part of some plan of Cavil's to box the 8 line or take control of the council? Is she just the first of many models that Cavil can seduce to his side somehow? They don't know, so they're pretty shocked by it.

But of course, let's not think of any of that. Let's simply make it a way to bash the writers over the fact that for some reason the show isn't going the way I want so I can throw my toys out of the pram and cry about it. :rolleyes:
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Asraniel on April 14, 2008, 11:44:07 AM
can we make a short list to the inconsistent things? Because i don't think anything is inconsistent or whatever. For me the story is very clear.

Humans creating cylons, cylons become more intelligent than wanted, war.
Cylons live alone, with no contact to humans, but want to become like their creators, they create their own society, with perhaps strange rules, having a freewill isn't important, it's the normal way.
Then, war.
Cylons get in contact with humans, the ones they try to be. They see the concept of free will, friendship, that humans are not that different. The cylons society changes more and more because of this.

the war will end, it's the only logical outcome.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Wolfy on April 14, 2008, 12:01:22 PM
hm, ive been readinf this thread, and im imppressed by how anti-spoiler it is for an episode discussion, heck, ive not even seen the episode yet im here (i just couldnt wait :'( )

im wandering if one half the cylon humans will box, or at least try and box the other half of the cylon humans (specifically, the side that 'freed' the centurions, will try and box the others, and unbox D'anna) Seeming theres now general intrest in the cylons about the final 5, i can see why D'anna will get unboxed

As for the story and it not being pre-planned... thats just nonsence. Sure, not everything was totally planned out, nothing ever is, but they had the general flow of the show figured out.

As for the cylon society, what more do we need to know? Also, the cylon humans ma once of had a plan, as was seen with nukeing and killing etc, but they became more human than they anticipated, and more than theyve realised. as for them being called skinjobs, thats no longer accurate, there really Cylon Humans now

we still have 18 episodes for all the things that we will obviusly find out. We wont find out who the final cylon is, what role the final 5 and what head baltar n head six are untill the serieis finale most likely, which is the way it should be.

as for the rubbish episodes of season 3, which everyone considers is ghe stand alones, they where basically toldd to write stand alones by the tv company, so thats not there fault, and form what ive read, RDM and team have been given free reign again to do it all there way.

That being said, some of the stand lone episodes wernt that bad, we got back stories to characters, bucket loads of character develpopment, and loads of new caprica inofrmation which i fear would of been lost if it was more story driven than stand alone, heck, Hero was acturally one of the better episodes of that season.

Anyway, moving on, i read earlier on people saying it defies Sci-Fi, but, if your watching this as aa sci-fi, then your watching it wrong. Its more of a Sci-Fi-Drama, its almost its own Genre, the only other program i could say is anything like Battlestars genre is Torchwood, especially the second series, much more darker and battlestarish. Includes major plot twists (omg @ season 2 finale).

So all being all, dont watch battlestar as a sci-fi, watch it for what it really is, that is all. Longest post ive made in a while
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Seeker on April 14, 2008, 01:39:51 PM
"By your command....Dave."

(http://www.fatsilicon.com/hal9000.jpg)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: SFM Hobbes on April 14, 2008, 02:45:54 PM
NOW is the PERFECT time for Galactica to attack.  The cylons would be totally defenseless.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: TESLA on April 14, 2008, 04:35:47 PM
im sure if provoked the Cylons would still attack,

self defence and survival is a basic trait of all life forms.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Star Dragon on April 14, 2008, 06:22:21 PM
Speaking of sci-fi, where the hell are they replenishing their air from? :)

They ran out of water ONCE and ate algie for a short time before New Caprica.

In TOS, supplies were a constant theme. (otherwise known as the "stuff that keeps us alive arc") It sure would have been cool if they were more active gathering stuff on screen. You get the impression they are always moving and never going near a planet (just nebulas).

It's not a gripe, just pointing out that the drama versus sci-fi assesment is correct. Still, such activities could have been written in more AND be dramatic.

Assuming they have Super Carbon scrubbers and infinite air recycling, and Water that can be recycled from septic systems, they appear to not have any food production capabilities of note. How far can you ration food before your ship operators weaken enough to endanger the whole fleet.

The bum rush from Caprica likely was not a good chance to stock the ships galleys right? :)

I would do this: "Look we're sorry, let's end the war. How about enough meat for 100 hamburgers per Colonial until we can work something out?"

Crap, that might have worked but they messed up at New Caprica... ;)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Angelus on April 14, 2008, 06:34:04 PM
Quote from: Star Dragon;97397
Speaking of sci-fi, where the hell are they replenishing their air from? :)

They ran out of water ONCE and ate algie for a short time before New Caprica.

In TOS, supplies were a constant theme. (otherwise known as the "stuff that keeps us alive arc") It sure would have been cool if they were more active gathering stuff on screen. You get the impression they are always moving and never going near a planet (just nebulas).

It's not a gripe, just pointing out that the drama versus sci-fi assesment is correct. Still, such activities could have been written in more AND be dramatic.

Assuming they have Super Carbon scrubbers and infinite air recycling, and Water that can be recycled from septic systems, they appear to not have any food production capabilities of note. How far can you ration food before your ship operators weaken enough to endanger the whole fleet.

The bum rush from Caprica likely was not a good chance to stock the ships galleys right? :)

I would do this: "Look we're sorry, let's end the war. How about enough meat for 100 hamburgers per Colonial until we can work something out?"

Crap, that might have worked but they messed up at New Caprica... ;)


The ships have air recycling ( seen in s2 ep8 ), also there is one agro ship in the fleet.
Galactica has a very efficient water recycling system( according to Adama ), it needs to be replenished every 5 years ( iirc ), as seen in s1 ep 2.
The algae thing happened in season 3 ( the passage, eye of jupiter ), because of the radiation of the Nebula the canned food was contaminated.

Make it 150 BIG KINGS and i sign in...;)

They messed up at NC?
Yeah, bombing the nearest McCylon restaurant is a bad idea.;)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Tikey on April 14, 2008, 06:36:29 PM
Do you really want another resources arc? Water, fuel, food. I think we saw more than enough that they have those issues and can solve them.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 14, 2008, 06:42:25 PM
They have water and a generator that can crank out tonnes of power. Why would air be a problem?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Wolfy on April 14, 2008, 06:53:56 PM
It was also mentioned, eith int he mini series or Water, than Galactica had 12 co2 scrubbers, seems to be working well for them
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: SFM Hobbes on April 14, 2008, 07:23:33 PM
You could see some them still eating what looked like algae protein in the last episode, not that it really matters.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: wiley on April 14, 2008, 08:01:56 PM
If algae goes bad, what does it look like?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: TESLA on April 14, 2008, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: wiley;97416
If algae goes bad, what does it look like?


probably the same, lol, i doubt it could getter any worse :D
who knows, maybe it goes backwards and gets better, and turns into chicken in the end, cause most things taste like chicken :)
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 14, 2008, 11:03:56 PM
Well... I assume by "going bad" you don't refer to fermentation? Because I don't think Galactica Crew would consider that "going bad"... they would just distill the fermented algae mash and call it ambrosia.

...I think I just figured out why exactly they don't run out of booze but food and water are occasionally sparse.:lol:

I guess it could be infected with some non-beneficial bacteria or mould, though.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: TESLA on April 14, 2008, 11:11:21 PM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ambrosia. Its lovely!!!


Right, im off for a while, someone planted a bomb up the road, getting evacuated! :mad:


chat later!!
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Tikey on April 14, 2008, 11:40:07 PM
Quote from: Tikey;97399
Do you really want another resources arc? Water, fuel, food. I think we saw more than enough that they have those issues and can solve them.


With what you said I have to correct myself, I actually want another resources episode. We need a booze shortage episode.
It would be the end of the fleet!
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Awger on April 15, 2008, 12:07:50 AM
Re: the "boring" (character development) episodes

I always chalked that up to economics.... after you blow the wad on The Beast & Bucket beotch-slapping half a dozen basestars, you don't have a lot of money left over for externals; interior shots are relatively cheap. ( ? )

Re: intelligence vs programming (emergent behavior)

The tin cans are programmed to follow orders and have programming lockouts that preclude them from injuring (known) Cylons; for all we know, they're purely mechanical (minimal learning abilities, no regeneration).

The raiders are "animal in a can" -- much more learning capability, and their cognizance is reconstituted when their can is smashed (to wit: Scar -- "He hates you as much as you hate him").

Machines are easy enough to turn off or reprogram... animals, not so much (If you don't believe me, piss off a cat sometime...) Raiders breaking off an attack would scare the bajeezus outa me, and I'd want to labotomize 'em myself... lest they decide that *I* was a greater threat than the human fleet.

Maybe it's just me, and I'm paranoid... but I have cats. Two Siamese. Vindictive little wenches. Never trust 'em. They have parties when I'm not home...

Re: the Four

I see no reason why "flipping the switch" couldn't / wouldn't also involve some physiological changes that would then be recognizable by other Cylons. Wouldn't have to be obvious to humans (everybody that can smell pheromones, raise your hand) and it would also explain why Tyrol never asked Boomer why her spine lit up during... um... indoor golf.

Best line from the last episode:

"You can stay in the room, but get outa my head."
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 15, 2008, 12:10:07 AM
Quote from: TESLA;97441
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ambrosia. Its lovely!!!


Right, im off for a while, someone planted a bomb up the road, getting evacuated! :mad:


chat later!!

What do you live in the White House or near the post office? :D
j/k
I hope you and your family are safe and sound Tes!


As far as the series and its inconsistencies, I have a hard time with arguments condemning the series. After all, it is years of a living plot. Always subject to basic human idealogy with (I have to say) some reasonably high quality artistic license & intellectual property sarrounding it.

Everyone can criticize anything at any time without ever having conquered the same circumstances sarrounding the people in control. Budget constraints, time constraints, resource constraints in general with actors schedules, equipment and of course artistic constraints along with unions, strikes, etc... the list goes on and on.

I'm surprised how far people will go to write an extremely long in depth post on what they see. I'm not condemning it just surprised at the extreme differences of opinion and scope. Chances are, if you write enough you may have a 50/50 chance of being right in some manifest perception of how things will unfold. Me I'll look at the broad reaching concepts but not too much of the details. I would rather enjoy the content the writers & artists are working so hard to create than ruin it with expectations. No more or less presumptuous than goping on a date with someone.:biggrin1:
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Fairchild on April 15, 2008, 07:24:46 PM
Here is what is going to happen. The tin can's are going to rebell against the skin jobs.
The skin jobs have to join forces with Adama to prevent being wiped out.
This brings 10's of thousands of replacements and new breeding stock into the fleet.
They drive back the tin can's and that is the "new" first war against the cylons.
Something happens to muddle that in history of course so it can repeat itself.

Humans have always been skinjob/hybrids fighting the tin can's trying to kill them, because the skin jobs kept lobotomizing them.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: kristofori on April 15, 2008, 10:26:38 PM
Quote from: Fairchild;97536
Here is what is going to happen. The tin can's are going to rebell against the skin jobs.
The skin jobs have to join forces with Adama to prevent being wiped out.
This brings 10's of thousands of replacements and new breeding stock into the fleet.
They drive back the tin can's and that is the "new" first war against the cylons.
Something happens to muddle that in history of course so it can repeat itself.

Humans have always been skinjob/hybrids fighting the tin can's trying to kill them, because the skin jobs kept lobotomizing them.


Wow, I like this theory.  A lot.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Wolfy on April 15, 2008, 10:31:59 PM
just watched 1st 2 eps. That.... was amazing. Decent story, and adding head-Baltar truly was amazing. If i hadnt of been reading this thread before hand, i think id of fallen off the front of my chair in suprise.

As for the cylons, the raiders wont shoot the coloniale, the centurians seem to be with the raiders and I imagine are protecting them, while the cylons that human-cylons that voted not to labotomise the raiders are presumably on said side. It seems the 3 that labotomised the raiders are on there own?

where can they acturally go? will one half box the other half?
[spoiler]and what will the 3s reaction to all this? "Oh god, you guys have realy fraked this up"?[/spoiler]

anyone notice the cylons are now doing exactly the same thing that the 3s got boxed for? looks like Cavil was too late in saving societies when he boxed her
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: All-a-Mort on April 16, 2008, 08:45:28 AM
Anybody think that the Six's, Two's and Eight's will try to 'unbox' the Three's? If memory serves they were boxed because of their obsession with the Final Five. If the 'rebel' Cylons are now of the same mind to investigate the Final Five then would they wake the Three's up?

Has it ever been said what exactly a 'skinjob' is? Are we talking 'Terminator' like flesh over a metal skeleton, or just a cloned human body with lots of implants? And what would the Cylon-hybrid children be like...more like baseline-Human? The whole human-machine reproduction aspect needs explaining I reckon. I wonder because, Fairchild's theory is interesting. Are the humans in fact human at all, or are the (now) humans just the result of the skinjobs' evolution into them, over time becoming less and less mechanical, until they aren't really Cylons anymore with the whole thing occurring again and again?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 16, 2008, 04:28:20 PM
It looks like the previews have the episodes delving into these details as they figure out the final five are already in the fleet.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: docfu on April 16, 2008, 06:10:00 PM
Yeah, I can see it now:

"Every man gets a six, a three or an eight...or any combination of the above."

This is right up there with Dr. Strangelove and the "10 women for every man, and of course they'd have to be attractive to the men otherwise breeding would not occur..."

And the slogan would run something like:

"The cylons were created by man...and uh...make love not war..."
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 16, 2008, 06:43:07 PM
Something tells me 1 real woman is more than eough pain for one man to handle, 10 Cylon femme fatale's and your pretty much toast for the toasters :D
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: kristofori on April 16, 2008, 07:33:54 PM
Quote from: All-a-Mort;97584
And what would the Cylon-hybrid children be like...more like baseline-Human? The whole human-machine reproduction aspect needs explaining I reckon.


If memory serves me correctly, I believe somewhere in the first or second (2.0) seasons something is mentioned about the skinjob cylons were investigating reproducing through procreation; they had attempted too but never succeeded, which is why they sent Athena Eight down to Caprica to replace Boomer Eight to seduce Helo, purely as an experiment.  They said that the key ingredient they were missing was Love.  Well, their experiment worked, and produced Hera.

Another interesting thing to think about, considering we see Caprica Six's spine glow just like Athena Eight does with Helo; if Caprica Six wasn't taken out by the nuclear blast, she probably would've gotten pregnant by Gaius.  I'm assuming this is why Head Six is always referring to pre-birth Hera as her's and Gaius' child?  Some sort of craziness because their child was killed when Caprica Six died in the blast, so they're referring to Hera, another half-human half-cylon child, as their own child by proxy?
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Star Dragon on April 16, 2008, 08:41:53 PM
Well I always figured Caprica Six (as well as the whole line) was just a complete wack job.

Despite numerous times, I think Gaius only challenged her and "God's plan" once and she instantly went into bitchy overlord mode punishing him. Someone's obviously been in denial for years. The Cylons really needed to make a psychologist model methinks... :)

Now that she's in the brig in chains I'd glady taunt her, "It's not your child toaster! She already has two biological parents who lover her and will raise her properly without your delusions, thank you..."

 Muhahaha, imagines SIX foaming at the mouth and calling me names like infidel and heathen...

I swear just before that one chick held up the device I thought the Centurions were gonna part and you see THREE stroll in (miss me?) with a big smile on her face. That would have been the shit.

Cavil stammers, "That the frak are you doing here?"

Diana: "First thing the Centurions did when they heard what was going on was unbox me. WE decided we have a few grievances with you, but don't worry, they came up with a suggestion... Die!"

Bullet heads rip into them...
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: karajorma on April 16, 2008, 09:41:23 PM
Quote from: Star Dragon;97641
Now that she's in the brig in chains I'd glady taunt her, "It's not your child toaster! She already has two biological parents who lover her and will raise her properly without your delusions, thank you..."

 Muhahaha, imagines SIX foaming at the mouth and calling me names like infidel and heathen...


Her response would probably be "What?!" given that it was head-six who said that not Caprica Six.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: ghaleon on April 18, 2008, 05:42:01 AM
Just watched the episode tonight (taped it last Friday).

By the way, did anybody else notice that the Mk VII in the hangar while Apollo was getting a salute was certainly a Maelstrom variant? I think it's the first Maelstrom life-sized prop we've seen.

Also, Lee and Dee seemed pretty cold to each other in that scene.

Also, I think the special effects are getting better with every episode. The centurions looked a lot better than in Razor, and I think their new more-plastic-than-metallic style actually looks better than the original version. Clips of the fleet are looking good. It looks like the ultra-bright ambient lighting was just an Ionian Nebula thing, and won't be there all the time. So that doesn't bug me anymore either.

Anyway, I'm really enjoying season four so far.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: wiley on April 18, 2008, 09:28:24 AM
Starbuck came back the same, but her viper was new. Maybe her viper is a Cylon.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Asraniel on April 18, 2008, 10:33:48 AM
Well it's easy.

IF she found earth, then there where people living there, we know that.
Probably they built her a new viper, and made her forget most of what she saw.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: newman on April 18, 2008, 10:55:22 AM
Quote from: Asraniel;97829
Well it's easy.

IF she found earth, then there where people living there, we know that.
Probably they built her a new viper, and made her forget most of what she saw.

Sure, they just happened to have a full set of mkII engineering blueprints, and the production line set up to make it (even though they never should have been able to see this ship at all up until then). She was gone for two months. That's just not enough time to reverse-engineer a complex piece of hardware like a space fighter, and then build a new one from scratch, I don't care how tech savvy you are. You'd be lucky if you could make a full set of engineering blueprints in that time, using just the ruined Kara's ship as a reference, let alone come up with a production line and specialized tools to build her. And that's just for the mechanical parts, without mentioning avionics, software, etc. without which any fighter is just a useless bunch of metal.
Nope, the explanation for the new viper will have to be a new one. If they even try to explain that the earthlings built this thing in two months, it'll suck, badly, mainly because it will either involve the unbelievable "they built it" explanation, or the mystical magical one, both prospects don't seem that hot to me.
What I'm wondering is, don't these things have serial numbers? Almost every part should have one, which should enable the flight crew to at least try and piece together where the frak this thing came from. It would at least be a start, as opposed to just saying "nav computer's wiped" and abandoning any further investigation. I'd expect a full forensic investigation involving a team of experts going over every nut and bolt with a fine tooth comb. They have the personell.. the deck gang, even that aeronautical engineer (Laird?) from Pegasus... use them.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Fairchild on April 18, 2008, 02:12:15 PM
Tech savy is one thing. More advanced is another. It is quite reasonable to say if they were more advanced, that they could build one based on what it looked like, or if they used to make them.
For instance even now it is not that far from having something to building one with rapid prototyping equipment in the actual material it needs to be made.

I do agree that the software problem would have to be sorted out, but perhapes it just "looks like" the old software. Kind of like how xp can emulate 98.
It will interface, but if you dig deeper, the code is different. Not that hard to imagine since I doubt most of the ships would be fly by wire, less the cylon hack into it and cause all the ships to go whacky.

Back to my theory. I have some new points.
Since they can genetically alter themselves, imagine if when they chose to integrate with the "humans" that they change their looks.
The "Final five" are the last set of cylons skin jobs that decided to stay true to form.
The number changes each time the cycle happens, but the last set stay as they were.
They do some genetic alteration to allow themselves to age but more slowly. then brain wipe themselves until the cycle comes back.
There are a few holes, but it kind of rounds out.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: SFM Hobbes on April 18, 2008, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: ghaleon;97818
Just watched the episode tonight (taped it last Friday).

By the way, did anybody else notice that the Mk VII in the hangar while Apollo was getting a salute was certainly a Maelstrom variant? I think it's the first Maelstrom life-sized prop we've seen.

It most certainly was not.  The physical mk 7 model is not the maelstrom variant.  Screengrabs from the episode confirm it.  The maelstrom variant's wings are not one smooth contour as can be seen here.  I can also confirm it with proof that I was actually there.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Ajax on April 18, 2008, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: newman;97830

What I'm wondering is, don't these things have serial numbers? Almost every part should have one, which should enable the flight crew to at least try and piece together where the frak this thing came from. It would at least be a start, as opposed to just saying "nav computer's wiped" and abandoning any further investigation. I'd expect a full forensic investigation involving a team of experts going over every nut and bolt with a fine tooth comb. They have the personell.. the deck gang, even that aeronautical engineer (Laird?) from Pegasus... use them.


they would probably find they all match for mysitc reasons lol. that or every number starts or ends with 666 :o

from what i understood the tyrol said it was the same viper and it wasn't, from what he could tell it was the viper she left in but was completely repaird as if she got it from the frist cylon war
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Enki on April 18, 2008, 08:05:45 PM
yes.  Tyrol mentioned it was the same tail number and that ~the parts checked out~ or something to that effect.
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: KewlToyZ on April 18, 2008, 11:43:17 PM
The first war reference may be a major line hanger if there ever was one.......
Title: Season 4 Ep 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
Post by: Cl1nt on April 19, 2008, 08:07:22 AM
Quote from: wiley;97828
Starbuck came back the same, but her viper was new. Maybe her viper is a Cylon.


Somebody give this man a medal.


Also, Ghaleon probably just saw a cgi model and mistook it for a prop. I've done that a few times..