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Hosted => Battlestar Galactica: Beyond the Red Line => Topic started by: skimmons on November 18, 2006, 09:39:09 PM

Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: skimmons on November 18, 2006, 09:39:09 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk3.jpg)


(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk2.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk1.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk8.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk7.jpg)

[







ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! perhaps we might see one, in BTRL someday
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: skimmons on November 18, 2006, 09:40:45 PM
More pics!!!!!!!!!!!


(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk4.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk5.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk6.jpg)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: duckbow on November 18, 2006, 10:29:52 PM
Woooot! I love it. The CIC is sooo clean. No random swivel glass doors like on Pegasus (though the glass kept on breaking for dramatic effect). I assume the Valkyrie is from a class of battlestars between Galactica, 40 years ago, and the Pegasus, a semi-recent family of ships.

The Valkyrie looks quite slick. Especially the flight pods - classier, smoother, and more refined than Galactica AND Pegasus, in my opinion. Thanks so much for the pictures!
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on November 18, 2006, 11:14:56 PM
Very obvious throwbacks to TOS Galactica, namely in the head and landing pods; which, considering Galactica has been heavily retrofitted...makes sense even if it was built after Galactica.  I for one appreciate the references to the classic battlestars.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 19, 2006, 12:37:04 AM
I really miss Zoic the inhouse cgi keeps slipping up IMHO they magically added guns to the top of the Pegasus pods, the exo II space battle wasn't up to Rez II or Cap Hand standards, they "refined" the baseship so that it looks like its half the size and half as menacing.   Now this...

This is the ugliest ship i think ive ever seen, not only is the hull homely but the greebling looks like theyve never seen the galactica or pegasus.  Even the TOS battlestars looked better then that, and saying that this thing is a throwback is an insult to them ;).  Thing looks like a bloated humbacked prehistoric salamander with an itty bitty pointy head and kazzoo engines borrowed off the Merc.  The weapons look like they ripped off the Death Star turbolazers from episode IV.  Since 75 and 62 have the same types of weapons you would think theyed be careful enough to stick with "canon" looking cannons.  Plus the hull plating looks lazy as hell, i mean i know its proly a one show ship but cmon give it a little effort its almost as bad ass those half assed DS9 kitbashes like the Yeager.  I was really really looking forward to the Valk and i really wanted to like her but man i think using another Mercury class woulda been better then that monstorcity
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Fish on November 19, 2006, 12:55:16 AM
canon = true to a design concept
cannon = projectile weapon

It's obvious the Valkyrie was intended to look different. Given how different the Galactica is to the Pegasus, that such a third variation existed isn't a surprise to me.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dodger on November 19, 2006, 01:26:40 AM
Quote from: StarSlayer;48456

This is the ugliest ship i think ive ever seen, not only is the hull homely but the greebling looks like theyve never seen the galactica or pegasus.  Even the TOS battlestars looked better then that, and saying that this thing is a throwback is an insult to them ;).  Thing looks like a bloated humbacked prehistoric salamander with an itty bitty pointy head and kazzoo engines borrowed off the Merc.  The weapons look like they ripped off the Death Star turbolazers from episode IV.  Since 75 and 62 have the same types of weapons you would think theyed be careful enough to stick with "canon" looking cannons.  Plus the hull plating looks lazy as hell, i mean i know its proly a one show ship but cmon give it a little effort its almost as bad ass those half assed DS9 kitbashes like the Yeager.  I was really really looking forward to the Valk and i really wanted to like her but man i think using another Mercury class woulda been better then that monstorcity


thats so true :(!
..but at least they didn't mess with that..
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/CHriSMesS/stealths.jpg)
i like the mixture of MK7 and modern combat fighters l (X29-A,f22,..)!
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: sykochild on November 19, 2006, 01:30:05 AM
Ya the Valkyrie is suppose to be probably like a smaller variant of a battestar. From the looks of it it is very small compared to Pegasus. The Pegasus is better in my opinion.....
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on November 19, 2006, 01:32:23 AM
...Valkyrie uglier than TOS Galactica?  no way...that thing was king of Cheese.  thought I readily admit that the V is no Beast or Bucket.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: sykochild on November 19, 2006, 01:38:22 AM
The V doesn't look like it is really a fighting battlestar rather it looks like it is for scouting battlestar or recon battlestar. Who knows?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dodger on November 19, 2006, 01:46:14 AM
now i know where they took their inspiration for the V!!

front= Y-Wing,torso = a container, engines = Peg

 (http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/maniac084/valk3.jpg)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: FusionStorm on November 19, 2006, 01:53:04 AM
Wow, that is butt ugly...... They need Stayslayer baddddd.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Freelancer on November 19, 2006, 01:56:57 AM
its like a smaller battlestar..... a strikestar or frigatestar? =P
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Fish on November 19, 2006, 02:07:53 AM
Quote from: Dodger;48462
thats so true :(!
..but at least they didn't mess with that..
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/CHriSMesS/stealths.jpg)
i like the mixture of MK7 and modern combat fighters l (X29-A,f22,..)!

That shot at the top-right looks like the behind of an SF Mara!

The ship itself seemed to have been designed like a more self-sufficient fighter, for a potentially longer mission.

Re: the Valkyrie, compare the size of the flight pod to the size of the body and head of the ship. Now do the same for the Pegasus, and Galactica. Does that help with judging the size, assuming the flight pod runway is roughly constant size?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: The Trivial Psychic on November 19, 2006, 04:31:34 AM
Fish, I checked out the link you put up in the 3x08 thread, and am quite impressed with the shots.  In one shot, you can see a long barrel of some kind under the head area.  Check S3_307_279.JPG on page 7 to see it.  There are a couple more at the top of page 8, but the rest of the Valkyrie shots are on pages 14 and 15, including a closeup of the missile port which fired on Bulldog.  Modders may wish to save these for reference until the DVDs come out.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 19, 2006, 04:40:55 AM
Quote from: Dukeman42;48464
...Valkyrie uglier than TOS Galactica?  no way...that thing was king of Cheese.  thought I readily admit that the V is no Beast or Bucket.


She is def uglier then ye old Colombia class, given the right attention i bet i could "TNS" the TOS galactica so that it would A) comfortably fit into TNS and B) make the Valk look pants(note A is considerably harder to do then B since Valk already is pants)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on November 19, 2006, 04:50:01 AM
Quote from: StarSlayer;48484
She is def uglier then ye old Colombia class, given the right attention i bet i could "TNS" the TOS galactica so that it would A) comfortably fit into TNS and B) make the Valk look pants(note A is considerably harder to do then B since Valk already is pants)


I have a gap in my knowledge...what is the 'Columbia class'?  is that the current Galactica?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: northtwilight on November 19, 2006, 09:11:38 AM
Quote from: Dukeman42;48485
I have a gap in my knowledge...what is the 'Columbia class'?  is that the current Galactica?

Old TOS Galactica iirc.

Valkyrie 'is one ugly baby', to paraphrase Laird... that squashed head look terrible.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Roy Fokker on November 19, 2006, 11:34:46 AM
It is definitely much smaller than a "regular" Battlestar. It looks as modern as the Mercury, only smaller - obviously intended for different missions. Also, in the show, Adama's transfer to the Galactica is considered a demotion, even though it is a larger class, so the Valkyrie is definitely state of the art, if smaller.

I didn't hate it, they don't really have to be beautiful, especially since it's not like it's gonna be around forever.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 19, 2006, 04:52:23 PM
The TOS Galactica was the orphan bastard child of a thousand battleship model kits that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can't make something look like pants compared to it, it is the very definition of pants.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 19, 2006, 09:17:13 PM
She looks pretty good in this shot that was posted on SFM a while back, with a some regreebling work and some minor modifications the design could be made TNS and certainly better then the Suckstar Valkyrie.

(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1051/battlestar20so20far201bx7.jpg)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 19, 2006, 09:25:54 PM
Well when you 3Dify it so you can play with the textures of course it looks decent. The original one was off-white and no specular.

The actual TOS Galactica model is still out there somewhere, IIRC.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Coop1701 on November 20, 2006, 01:20:01 AM
I don't believe we can judge her size, saying she's a smaller battlestar.  A Battlestar is a Battlestar in my opinion.  Each has something different to offer.

However, she does look like the broken up Battlestar we see in orbit around Caprica during the Mini-Series.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Scotchy on November 20, 2006, 01:29:01 AM
Thaw was the galactica model cut in half. On the DVD it is clearly visible... gloriously visible.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Roy Fokker on November 20, 2006, 04:12:59 AM
Quote from: Scotchy;48583
Thaw was the galactica model cut in half. On the DVD it is clearly visible... gloriously visible.


Heh... nah, HD is where it's at.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/sf_anime/broken_battlestar.jpg)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: IceManHG on November 20, 2006, 04:33:13 AM
How the hell could a Battlestar be cut in half like that. Its too clean. Almost as if it was cut in half with a knife.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 20, 2006, 04:39:10 AM
SUPER TURBO LASER! um... no? ok well then... that is sort of weird, but remember it was a background shot deal... if you wanna get technical, maybe that area took a lot of damage, and the structures just broke and buckled, causing it to break... i act like i know what im talking about :-)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Blue Lion on November 20, 2006, 05:02:32 AM
Looks like it was snapped like a Kit Kat bar
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 20, 2006, 05:05:18 AM
Keel snaps, the rest of the ship isn't designed to support the stress...get one good hull flexing and it'll break along the keel break
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: FusionStorm on November 20, 2006, 05:17:10 AM
Looks like when the nuke went off inside, it blew up the reactor and that created a shock wave that sliced it in twain.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Arcain on November 20, 2006, 05:59:17 AM
One hell of a "clean" break for a nuke going off internally.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Roy Fokker on November 20, 2006, 12:16:35 PM
The battlestar being cut in half is not the problem - it's the pods. There is no way the pods can snap in half so cleanly, and stay attached to the battlestar halves so perfectly.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 20, 2006, 12:31:58 PM
It was LTerSlash. End discussion.:mad2:

...or not.:nervous: :naughty:
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 20, 2006, 01:52:46 PM
Baseship coducted the pinwheel attack were it spins around its axis and chops bsg's in half like a big table saw
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: skimmons on November 20, 2006, 05:01:04 PM
Honestly i like the design of the valk.  It looks like a slick ship, smaller and able to slip in and out of battle maybe.  Maybe it's a scout ship designed to patrol the armistace line.  Bigger is not always better when your trying not to be seen :biggrin1:
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 20, 2006, 05:13:10 PM
Well, I'd point out that all these assumptions of size are not smart until we've seen it compared to something of known size. Although granted the flight pods seem to be similar in size to Galactica's, perhaps smaller, assumption is the mother of all ****ups.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: karajorma on November 20, 2006, 06:09:50 PM
Missile -> Stealthstar comparison
Missile -> Valkyrie comparison

= Size of Valkyrie.

Haven't tried it. I have missions to work on but someone else might want to :)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: skimmons on November 20, 2006, 06:12:49 PM
I said it LOOKS like a smaller, slicker ship.  I know i don't know the size. :lol:
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 21, 2006, 02:02:38 AM
what kara said is how i was judging the size. the missile wasnt too much larger then the stealthstar, was about the same as a missile and fighter plane, and in comparison the the valk, the missile makes it look pretty small to me.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 21, 2006, 02:55:12 AM
We never did actually get a good look at the missile in comparison to the Valk though, only its exhaust trail.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 21, 2006, 07:40:42 AM
well in the first shots they posted in this thread, we can see the missile being fired from the valk, we see the trail, and the head for at least those first 2 shots. granted they arent great shots but we can see roughly the size of the missile
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: crimson96 on November 21, 2006, 08:27:24 AM
Assuming the guns are the same caliber as Pegasus and Galactica, (they might not be, its possible both Peggy and Galactica had been refitted with a newer heavy weapons system in between the Valkyrie incident and the Holocaust)  The guns alone suggest that Valkyrie is at least 3/4ths the size of Galactica if not smaller.  Huge cuts have to be taken out of the alligator head to allow for what looks like only two turrets on each side.  Galactica has 8 heavy weapons emplacements mounted in the mouth of the alligator head alone.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: PsyckoSama on November 21, 2006, 10:38:00 AM
Quote from: crimson96;48724
Assuming the guns are the same caliber as Pegasus and Galactica, (they might not be, its possible both Peggy and Galactica had been refitted with a newer heavy weapons system in between the Valkyrie incident and the Holocaust)  The guns alone suggest that Valkyrie is at least 3/4ths the size of Galactica if not smaller.  Huge cuts have to be taken out of the alligator head to allow for what looks like only two turrets on each side.  Galactica has 8 heavy weapons emplacements mounted in the mouth of the alligator head alone.


She has guns mounted on the flight pods...

And as for her gun size, I see them as smaller... I see the Peggy/Galactica
mounting the equivilant of 16inchers while the Valk would have like 10-12 inchers with maybe a greater ROF.

Battleship/star scale guns but not as powerful.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Rogue420 on November 21, 2006, 05:25:21 PM
I think the Valk kinda looks like the Cockren Warp Ship.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: AncientAngel on November 21, 2006, 06:35:18 PM
If anyone is wondering she is BSG-41.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 21, 2006, 08:00:11 PM
? that just means the valk was in battlestar group 41, like galactica was in battlestar group 75... i forget the peggy's group.

and i can kind of see the cochran warp ship... but that was built around a huge missile body, the only thing i really see in common is the long skinny shape
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: KypFisto on November 21, 2006, 09:19:46 PM
It kinda looks like the Phoenix, Zefram Cochrane's ship but its only in basic shape. You could just as easily say that the other battlestars look like the warp ship because of the "alligator on skies" design. Valkyrie is much larger by far and is of an entirely different design.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on November 23, 2006, 11:13:13 AM
Quote from: duckbow;48432
Woooot! I love it. The CIC is sooo clean. No random swivel glass doors like on Pegasus (though the glass kept on breaking for dramatic effect). I assume the Valkyrie is from a class of battlestars between Galactica, 40 years ago, and the Pegasus, a semi-recent family of ships.

The Valkyrie looks quite slick. Especially the flight pods - classier, smoother, and more refined than Galactica AND Pegasus, in my opinion. Thanks so much for the pictures!
There seem to be two clues as to the age/tech level of the Valkyrie: first, it clearly appears some time after the first Cylon war, meaning that its tech is probably more advanced than Galactica's. (Side note: How advanced? Anyone remember that rant Adam gave about networked computers? And he's serving on a ship that is allegedly more advanced than Galactica? who knows...)
Second, the pods don't seem to be retractable.  I think I remember reading over on BattlestarWiki that the retractable pods were a compensation for the fact that jump portals couldn't be made big enough to accomodate Galactica's outstretched pods with the level of tech present in Galactica. This leads to three possible conclusions about the nature of Valkyrie:
(1) She's capable of creating a bigger window and therefore, like Pegasus, doesn't need to retract her pods.
(2) She is smaller than Galactica and uses a similar jump engine, and doesnt need to retract her pods
(3) She is both smaller than Galactica and has more advanced jump tech.
So, maybe some of these are obvious. But there is something else: Look at her mission.  A capital ship, sent near an enemy's border to facilitate a recon mission that might provoke a hostile response. Further, as is mentioned later, the numbers on the insignia of battlestars indicate which battlegroup they are part of. Valkyrie shows up alone.
What this indicates to me: Valkyrie is a smaller capital ship in service to the Colonial military, possibly similar to an escort carrier. In modern US Naval doctrine, battlegroups are based around carriers, for example the Nimitz battlegroup (back in the day, battleships also had this distinction).  Valkyrie shows up with no escorts, which makes no sense if you are going to send a ship that takes as many resources to construct as a full-on battlestar to an enemy's border where it could possibly be destroyed or, worse, captured.  On that note, it also makes no sense to send a ship of the line who is representative of the highest levels of your technology to a place where the enemy can potentially get a good look at it, or capture it.  Finally, if something happened to the FTL engines, it would make sense to have a ship that could run and maneuver a little better than a larger ship.  This really seems to me like the duty of an escort carrier, or even a destroyer or frigate-type ship.

What makes no sense to me is why all we have ever seen is a "battlestar" in the same design style of Pegasus and Galactica.  A battlestar is by definition a hybrid between a carrier and a battleship. But are you seriously telling me that every ship in the Colonial fleet is either a fighter/support craft or a carrier? C'mon: it makes no sense that the defense of something as resource/personnel intensive as a battlestar wouldn't rate escorts that could at best provide additional anti-fighter protection and at worst, act as another layer of armor between the 4,200 person crew and a raider with a nuclear missile. Yet no one has mentioned anything besides a battlestar...

Sorry, one of my rants
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: WMCoolmon on November 23, 2006, 08:37:47 PM
Considering the mission would have been a complete failure if the Valkyrie were even detected, and quite possibly result in open warfare, I doubt that Adama's orders would have been to stick around and try to fight it out. Most likely they would have been to jump out if any contact were made during the mission.


Higher technology does not equate to 'networked' computers (whatever that means in the BSG universe), nor does it mean that it's a plothole. Adama may have made his decision on that point as a result of the Valkyrie's mission, with the belief that the Cylons were coming and it was a necessary measure.

Further, I haven't heard a thing about "jump portals" in the show, so either RDM has stated something in a podcast that I haven't heard, or BattlestarWiki has been making wild guesses about technology and people are getting it confused with canon information from the show.


We may not have seen anything smaller than a Battlestar precisely because of the Raiders-with-nukes thing. A medium-sized ship might not have enough guns to adequately defend itself from such an occurence, but wouldn't be maneuverable enough to avoid the nuke, and probably couldn't sustain any hits without serious damage. (Pegasus only sustained four and was in serious danger.)

Further, with FTL capability, the Colonial fleet can move a Battlestar lightyears within seconds. From a logistics point of view, that means if a vessel gets attacked by pirates, you can send an entire aircraft carrier/battleship to their location. With only 12 planets to defend, yet hundreds of Battlestars, the Colonial Fleet has quite an impressive advantage when it comes to numbers.

So there are a number of reasons why moderate-sized ships may not have been very popular in the col. fleet...
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dragoniz3r on November 23, 2006, 10:42:07 PM
I realize I'm in the minority, but I don't find Valkyrie to be horribly ugly. The landing pods looked rather slick to me, frankly. Its biggest problem is the aspect ratio. It's too long and not wide enough.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 23, 2006, 11:22:37 PM
Quote from: WMCoolmon;48935
Considering the mission would have been a complete failure if the Valkyrie were even detected, and quite possibly result in open warfare, I doubt that Adama's orders would have been to stick around and try to fight it out. Most likely they would have been to jump out if any contact were made during the mission.


Considering Valkyrie never crossed the line, her presence there (she was paralleling, not facing, the line) couldn't really be viewed as a provocation.

If I had to make a guess I would think that the presence of a Colonial military unit of Valkyrie's capablities near the line was not an uncommon occurance. Otherwise they would have launched from further back, or at the very least approached and then retreated again. The Colonials probably patrolled the armistice line even if the Cylons didn't.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: WMCoolmon on November 24, 2006, 02:49:46 AM
I think the Valkyrie would be the damning piece of evidence from a diplomatic POV. A stealth fighter flying around in Cylon space? Alright. Claim it was stolen, or the pilot went renegade, or some other such drek.

But an entire Battlestar parked and observing the fighter fly around in Cylon space? Yeah, that's not gonna fly too well to anybody.

Valkyrie by herself might not be too big of a problem, but once she launched that stealth fighter she would be a big red flag to anyone (Colonial or Cylon) about the military's official mission there.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 24, 2006, 04:18:24 AM
Well as for the Valkyrie while her tonnage maybe in question her class is not shes a battlestar.  If you look at her seal shes Battlestar Valkyrie BSG-41.  If she were say another class it would prolly read Crapstar Valkyrie, Homelyhulk Valkyrie or FuglyFrigate Valkyrie BSG-41.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on November 24, 2006, 09:57:46 AM
Quote from: WMCoolmon;48935
Considering the mission would have been a complete failure if the Valkyrie were even detected, and quite possibly result in open warfare, I doubt that Adama's orders would have been to stick around and try to fight it out. Most likely they would have been to jump out if any contact were made during the mission.


Higher technology does not equate to 'networked' computers (whatever that means in the BSG universe), nor does it mean that it's a plothole. Adama may have made his decision on that point as a result of the Valkyrie's mission, with the belief that the Cylons were coming and it was a necessary measure.

Further, I haven't heard a thing about "jump portals" in the show, so either RDM has stated something in a podcast that I haven't heard, or BattlestarWiki has been making wild guesses about technology and people are getting it confused with canon information from the show.


We may not have seen anything smaller than a Battlestar precisely because of the Raiders-with-nukes thing. A medium-sized ship might not have enough guns to adequately defend itself from such an occurence, but wouldn't be maneuverable enough to avoid the nuke, and probably couldn't sustain any hits without serious damage. (Pegasus only sustained four and was in serious danger.)

Further, with FTL capability, the Colonial fleet can move a Battlestar lightyears within seconds. From a logistics point of view, that means if a vessel gets attacked by pirates, you can send an entire aircraft carrier/battleship to their location. With only 12 planets to defend, yet hundreds of Battlestars, the Colonial Fleet has quite an impressive advantage when it comes to numbers.

So there are a number of reasons why moderate-sized ships may not have been very popular in the col. fleet...


Right so I never mentioned a plothole, just made an observation. It seemed to me that Pegasus had networked computers.

As for jumping in a carrier/battleship, you're right... except that the Colonials don't have FTL communications abilities. And there is no reason to believe that they cruise around with their ships' jump drives always spun up. And RE the size of the jump portal, search "jump" on the wiki and see. They cite "33" and the miniseries as references.
Title: check this out
Post by: Hunterbaine on November 24, 2006, 06:10:51 PM
here are some other ship styles I found on the net. Check it out!
http://www.astempire.net battlestar galactica ships
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: WMCoolmon on November 24, 2006, 08:11:55 PM
Okay, reading over BS Wiki here:
Quote
#  When "jumping" the Colonial drive systems are limited in size; this defines the maximum size to which a colonial vessel can be built (hence the need for battlestars to retract their landing pods and reduce their overall cross-section prior to a jump (Miniseries, 33, etc.).
# Colonial FTL systems appear to be a holdover from the Exodus from Kobol, and their current designs have been developed to meet the needs of jumping between the Twelve Colonies, and their outposts in other star systems. Colonial FTL capabilities have defined limits, referred to as the Red Line, beyond which jumps may not be possible / could result in damage to a vessel's drive system / lead to navigational inaccuracies that might put the ship at risk.

Pure speculation on both counts. Unless there was some major piece of dialogue that I missed, all the information that the audience is given in the Miniseries is
Now if you were to go on, you could reasonably speculate that jumping beyond a certain radius is dangerous due to navigational considerations - since Adama asks Gaeta, "Can you plot that jump?" rather than consulting the chief engineer about equipment failures.

Another obvious error:

Quote
* Colonial FTL systems are not small-scale, and cannot be installed into vehicles such as the Viper. They can, however, be used on vehicles the size of a Raptor, which is limited to brief, short-distance jumps. Raptors can make a sequence of short FTL "hops" in a row, to reach the same destination as a capital ship with a full-sized FTL drive (Miniseries).

Not only is the size of the FTL system pure speculation (There's never ever been any discussion on the show about the size of FTL drives), the Blackbird completely blows that speculation out of the water.



In the same vein, saying that the Valkyrie "appeared to have" networked computers is not an observation - it's a conclusion. We don't have any idea about what observations led you to believe this, we just know that whatever you saw - be it a piece of dialogue, various bits of the DRADIS screen, or a big sign in the background that said "PLEASE DO NOT PLAY COLONIAL HALO ON THE SHIP'S NETWORK" - made you think of a network.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: KypFisto on November 24, 2006, 08:22:35 PM
Quote from: Hunterbaine;49013
here are some other ship styles I found on the net. Check it out!
http://www.astempire.net battlestar galactica ships


Umm, all I see are Star Trek ships...
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Respenus on November 24, 2006, 08:23:26 PM
Quote from: KypFisto;49032
Umm, all I see are Star Trek ships...


True!
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 24, 2006, 09:20:51 PM
From watching the series my understanding was that the "red line" was the edge of colonial territory and at least part of it formed the DMZ between colonial/cylon space.  Colonials had thoroughly mapped out the space within the red line and thus could jump around it with reasonable accuracy within the limits of thier "FTL Navicomputer."  

The area beyond the red line was not touroughly mapped out and jumping around out into the beyond was more dangerous especially due to the limits on the FTLNavComp.  Almost analagous to sailing around your coast is safer then sailing around the other side of the world.  Cylons because of better FTLNavComps and or better mapping of the great "beyond the red line" are able to jump farther ala Koby 1 and LDYB 1.

I would hazard that FTL Drives' jump distance is limited to the Nav Computer accuracy and mapping then anything else since the Raptors equiped with the HR nav Comp were able to jump farther then thier standard didstance.

I base most of my assumptions on Ext Pegasus and LDYB 1.  Basically I dont think the red line denotes a range limiter on the FTL Drive but was the boundry of Colonial Space.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: karajorma on November 24, 2006, 09:46:31 PM
Yep. If you're going to read that much into the miniseries you could easily conclude that Colonial ships never actually use their jump engines except in dire emergencies based on the shocked response everyone has to Adama saying that he's planning it.

It would be a load of crap of course but the miniseries says little to dissuade you from concluding it. Which is why you should be careful to never make conclusions without solid evidence from the show rather than what something sounds like.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 24, 2006, 09:52:23 PM
i dont know that the red line had anything to do with the armistice line. i was lead to believe they way they said it, it was just the farthest the colonies had ever thoroughly explored and charted, perhaps you're right though and the armistice line would make some of that line up. basically, once they were "beyond the red line" they were in uncharted space, places the present day colonies have never gone, not sure what to expect, where its not as easy to plot jumps
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Snagger on November 24, 2006, 09:54:19 PM
Based on the reasonable assumption that the black "runway" strip in the pods is the same width on all Battlestars, the pods are definately shorter than Galactica or Mercury class'.  The torso looks to be of similar length, but appears stretched because the shorter pods don't reach as far back as the beginning of the engine section.  This long look is exagerated  by the small alligator head (which reminds me more as an independent section of the Nostromo's escape vehicle).  The overall appearance (squat, hunkered, with spawled sides and the wedge "eye sockets") reminds me mostly of Space 1999's Eagles.

I don't like Valkarie's appearance, but it's great to see another design.  As a concept, it seems valid.  You don't need a heavy ship like a Mercury for regular patrols - they seem more like fleet flagships, probably each commanded by an Admiral, just like Pegasus was.

As for the tech, she's clearly a newish vessel.  There would be no rerason that her computers weren't networked (for the sake of the running debate) - all the modern fleet were wiped out because of that fact, and she didn't make it to Ragnar after Adama took copmmand of the whole remaining fleet.  The only reason Galactica's computers were not networked was that she was about to be retired, and so was her commander, and with his career already in the toilet, he figured he could refuse the Admiralty's instructions to run the networks.  Galactica's equipment has clearly been kept upto scratch as a part of the fleet - there is little difference between her radio comms, sensors and display screens and the Pegasus', and her flight pods would have been kept updated to handle and service Raptors and MkVIIs.  The main differences are in the control and maintenance of the ship itself, which requires more crew than the newer vessels.  This would compare well with real naval vessels kept in service for long periods, like HMS Hermes or USS New Jersey.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 24, 2006, 10:00:21 PM
Quote from: Josh_88;49057
i dont know that the red line had anything to do with the armistice line. i was lead to believe they way they said it, it was just the farthest the colonies had ever thoroughly explored and charted, perhaps you're right though and the armistice line would make some of that line up. basically, once they were "beyond the red line" they were in uncharted space, places the present day colonies have never gone, not sure what to expect, where its not as easy to plot jumps



I assumed that the big red line between Colonial territoy/cylon on DRADIS was the same red line
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Snagger on November 24, 2006, 10:02:50 PM
Quote from: Josh_88;49057
i dont know that the red line had anything to do with the armistice line. i was lead to believe they way they said it, it was just the farthest the colonies had ever thoroughly explored and charted, perhaps you're right though and the armistice line would make some of that line up. basically, once they were "beyond the red line" they were in uncharted space, places the present day colonies have never gone, not sure what to expect, where its not as easy to plot jumps

It's not impossible that the Armistice Line was a sphere around the Colonies, offering the Colonies a zone of protected space with everything they needed inside of it.  There was no indication of who held the most power at the end of the Cylon War, and thus who has to live within the confines.  It may well have been that the Cylons had the advantage and the Colonials got bottled up.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Colonel-Colt on November 25, 2006, 01:21:51 AM
Quote from: karajorma;49054
Yep. If you're going to read that much into the miniseries you could easily conclude that Colonial ships never actually use their jump engines except in dire emergencies based on the shocked response everyone has to Adama saying that he's planning it.

It would be a load of crap of course but the miniseries says little to dissuade you from concluding it. Which is why you should be careful to never make conclusions without solid evidence from the show rather than what something sounds like.

Actually they firmly stated in the Mini that they were all surprised since the Galactica hasnt made a jump in 30 years (Tigh said it) so anyone who comes to that conclussion is incorrect.
Title: ...
Post by: Tex Arcana on November 25, 2006, 03:48:14 AM
Quote from: Josh_88;49057
i dont know that the red line had anything to do with the armistice line. i was lead to believe they way they said it, it was just the farthest the colonies had ever thoroughly explored and charted, perhaps you're right though and the armistice line would make some of that line up. basically, once they were "beyond the red line" they were in uncharted space, places the present day colonies have never gone, not sure what to expect, where its not as easy to plot jumps

It's actually the "Outside of the Envelope". Just ask Chuck Yeager.;)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 25, 2006, 03:55:31 AM
Quote from: Snagger;49061
It's not impossible that the Armistice Line was a sphere around the Colonies, offering the Colonies a zone of protected space with everything they needed inside of it.  There was no indication of who held the most power at the end of the Cylon War, and thus who has to live within the confines.  It may well have been that the Cylons had the advantage and the Colonials got bottled up.


I doubt the line would have surrounded the colonies. would you ever agree to something like that? hey guys that was a nice war... lets be friends... just dont ever leave this circle... we dont really know who had power so we cant really guess... who knows though
 and starslayer... i dont doubt that big red line doesnt make up at least part of the red line, i just mean that the armistice line is probably only part of it.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 25, 2006, 04:03:14 AM
Self quoteage FTW!

Quote from: StarSlayer;49049
From watching the series my understanding was that the "red line" was the edge of colonial territory and at least part of it formed the DMZ between colonial/cylon space.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 25, 2006, 07:23:35 AM
Quote from: StarSlayer;49095
Self quoteage FTW!


for the win indeed... haha guess i didnt read that very well. :lol:
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Snagger on November 25, 2006, 06:49:49 PM
Quote from: Josh_88;49094
I doubt the line would have surrounded the colonies. would you ever agree to something like that?
If you'd read my post properly, you'd get the point that the Colonies may well have been on the weak end of the strategic situation when the armistice came into effect, giving them next to no negotiating power.  If your alternatives were total destruction or being confined to one (or a handful of) star systems, which would you choose?

It's just a plausible explaination - not an opinion, by the way.  There has not
been enough given away so far to know anything about the balance of power during and at the end of the war.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: karajorma on November 25, 2006, 07:46:25 PM
I doubt the colonials were on the losing end of the Cylon war though. At best it was more of a draw.

Although if they were on the losing end and could win now it would have explained why they were spoiling for a fight.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 25, 2006, 08:14:22 PM
I doubt the Toasters would have given up without having lost strategic initiative in the 1CW.  From the deleted flashbacks in "Scattered" and "Valley of Darkness" we can assume that the Cylons were very very angry with humanity.  I would asume thier intent from the get go was to wipe out the Colonials and if the war was going their way they would be relentless in achieving this goal.  Being machines i would assume that only being faced with thier eventual demise would they decide to seek or accept a cease fire.  My wild speculation is that the the 1CW resembled  WWII in way that the Cylons started the war with an military advantage and success, much like the Axis,  but began to lose ground as the Colonies began to adjust and bring the weight of thier production capabilities against them.  If you think about it the Colonies would have started the war with thier military and industry in shambles due to the fact that their metallic servants had revolted.  They had to basically rebuild thier economomy and military power from scratch while under assualt.  Things could only go up i would imagine from the start of the war.  Once it became apparent to the toasters that they had lost thier advantage and had no hope of defeating the colonies at this time they would have probably sued for peace.

This is my opinion based on what ive seen in the show and basing the strengths and weakness of the opposing forces on real world examples.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 25, 2006, 09:07:02 PM
and that is why i was saying its unlikely they were on the losing end, and therefore would have been surrounded by the armistice line... its clear the cylons dont like them, which is probably a hold over from the results of the first war.

and yeah i wasnt reading very well the other night haha it was early in the morning and i havent slept for a few days :-)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Snagger on November 25, 2006, 09:10:56 PM
Machines don't have emotions, only objectives.  Only the new models differ in that respect.  Perhaps the Cylons had the advantage at the armistice, but realised that pressing home a final assault on the Colonies would have been too costly for them, in which case it would have been in both parties interest to stop fighting?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Roy Fokker on November 25, 2006, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: Snagger;49168
Machines don't have emotions, only objectives.  Only the new models differ in that respect.  Perhaps the Cylons had the advantage at the armistice, but realised that pressing home a final assault on the Colonies would have been too costly for them, in which case it would have been in both parties interest to stop fighting?


I was always getting a Babylon 5 feeling about the war - you know, when the humans were at the verge of defeat, only to have the enemy surrender (or declare a truce) as a total surprise, because there was some larger agenda to be played out. I think we might find out eventually, when we find out just how the Cylons "evolved".
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 25, 2006, 10:40:49 PM
Well until RDM throws us a bone were not going to have a cannon answer for who kicked whose but in the 1CW.  My feeling still is that at the outset of the war the Colonials were well and truly frakked... Hard like Baltar getting raped by a centurion.  I get the feeling that cylons were a corner stone of the Colony's military and industrial infastructure.  Basically one day all of the technology they depended on just up and tried to kill them.  Every car, tank, construction vehicle, ship and home appliance decided to kill them.  Cylons would have started the war with better resources and military equipment and most importantly being planetside occupying Colonial planets.  The Colonials themselves have had to first stop the onslaught(probably by throwing bodies against them Soviet Army style) while trying desperately to rebuild thier warmachine using "computers and technology barely worthy of the name."  My feeling is that it was a war of attrition that was slowly edging to the colonials favor.  They probably were able to repulse the Cylons from most of thier worlds and were begining to overun the Cylon Navy.  I cant imagine that the toaster A) would have sued for peace if they had the military advantage and B) would have levied such light terms on the colonies if they had them on the brink of destruction.

Also i never got the feeling that Colonial Navy acted like they were losers to me, i dont imagine they would have had the post war draw down of forces if they hadn't punched the chrome jobs hard enough to think they wouldn't be back for a while.  The fact that they were surpirsed by how badly they were getting mauled in the mini makes me think they weren't expecting the toasters to wipe the floor with them either.  But like i said not really any clear canon evidence to sway the debate either way :P

Plus the toasters acted more like pissed off losers plotting to get em back for what they had done, and sneakily to boot
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 26, 2006, 01:14:48 AM
Quote from: Snagger;49168
Machines don't have emotions, only objectives.  Only the new models differ in that respect.  Perhaps the Cylons had the advantage at the armistice, but realised that pressing home a final assault on the Colonies would have been too costly for them, in which case it would have been in both parties interest to stop fighting?


The original Cylons were described as being sentient too; that implies emotion to my mind. It doesn't seem likely they would have just up and turned on humanity for no absolute reason. They had some sort of greviances.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 26, 2006, 03:19:55 AM
if you think about it, this is really the matrix put in space.. minus the "one".... at least so far. machines made for their bidding, machines get tired of it and revolt (if the machines didnt have any kind of emotion's or thoughts... why revolt in the first place?) and now humanity is on the verge of being wiped out. just noticed the parallel
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Taristin on November 26, 2006, 03:30:31 AM
Well, really, if anything, The Matrix is really just BattleStar Galactica in the cyberworld. >..>;;
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Unknown Target on November 26, 2006, 04:46:18 AM
Quote from: Josh_88;49189
if you think about it, this is really the matrix put in space.. minus the "one".... at least so far. machines made for their bidding, machines get tired of it and revolt (if the machines didnt have any kind of emotion's or thoughts... why revolt in the first place?) and now humanity is on the verge of being wiped out. just noticed the parallel


That's not true - you could use that logic and say that BSG is the Terminator in space. Man vs. Machine is a very common thread through a lot of stories mankind has told, both present and very past. BSG is just a variation on the theme (as is The Matrix). You can't say apples and oranges are alike just because they grow out of a seed :)

And anyway, as I recall the Cylons took up arms against the Colonials because they believed they were being treated unfairly - which would mean that they would have to be unhappy with their circumstances - which would mean that they would have to have emotions. IMO, anyway. I guess they could have also rebelled because their situation was no longer advantageous, but that would also imply a base level of emotion, which was the greed/the pursuit of power.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Draco429 on November 26, 2006, 07:34:16 AM
Well, Man vs. Machine/Man playing God. My Sci-Fi teacher in high school actually did his Master's Thesis on "Battlestar Galactica: A Revisitation of R.U.R." Sci-Fi is often a take on Religion vs. Science as well (hey, wait a second...) The similarities you guys are seeing are from the roots of sci-fi; they're not wrong, but comparing them as like another sci-fi isn't totally right, either. They're just all following the same guidelines as set by the genre.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dodger on November 26, 2006, 08:17:43 AM
Quote from: Draco429;49203
Well, Man vs. Machine/Man playing God. My Sci-Fi teacher in high school actually did his Master's Thesis on "Battlestar Galactica: A Revisitation of R.U.R." Sci-Fi is often a take on Religion vs. Science as well (hey, wait a second...) The similarities you guys are seeing are from the roots of sci-fi; they're not wrong, but comparing them as like another sci-fi isn't totally right, either. They're just all following the same guidelines as set by the genre.

well as long as they dont FTL around and piss off some parasite "godz" in every system they jump- get sic by unknown alien viruses every second episode- find overpowered alien relics ,they decide to ruin before they can use them- find mystorious intelligent clouds- adama falling in love with a weired alien chick sitting around on every second rock they pass with RTF-..... i can live with that!!! ;)

(sorry! didn't mean to offend all SG and ST-fans out there! :) )

Notice: (http://www.mariodesigngraphics.com/Tribbles.jpg)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 26, 2006, 08:59:43 AM
BSG is BSG in space.

As opposed to '78, which was BSG in something that vaguely resembled but very clearly was not space.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Colonel-Colt on November 26, 2006, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: Dodger;49204
well as long as they dont FTL around and piss off some parasite "godz" in every system they jump- get sic by unknown alien viruses every second episode- find overpowered alien relics ,they decide to ruin before they can use them- find mystorious intelligent clouds- adama falling in love with a weired alien chick sitting around on every second rock they pass with RTF-..... i can live with that!!! ;)

(sorry! didn't mean to offend all SG and ST-fans out there! :) )

Notice: (http://www.mariodesigngraphics.com/Tribbles.jpg)


That stuff pissed me off in SG, I'm glad they didnt do that in BSG. Its like 'ZOMG WE HAVE SOME UBER ASS SPACE SHIP! *Two episodes later* SHIT IT BLEW UP.... IN ITS -FIRST- FIGHT!' They needed to keep shit around >_<
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: skimmons on November 27, 2006, 06:32:21 PM
bump


HA #1 again
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 28, 2006, 12:01:32 AM
what?:confused:
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on November 28, 2006, 12:09:35 AM
You know what I'm worried about? Loss of manufacturing capabilities from Pegasus. Sure, they took care of the whole "what do we do now that we're running low on fighters" issue with the "Scar" episode. But seriously: Where are you gonna get new parts?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on November 28, 2006, 12:16:27 AM
one of the RTFs ships i think its the foundry ship :P has manufacturing facilities
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Ender on November 28, 2006, 12:46:57 AM
who says glactica cant produce fighters, we know the chief threw the blackbird together in a matter of days, the only reason it was mentioned was because pegasus was just starting or perhaps pegasus could mass produce them. i tihnk galactica can produce vipers or other ships although htey may be of less quality
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Roy Fokker on November 28, 2006, 01:25:14 AM
Quote from: StarSlayer;49409
one of the RTFs ships i think its the foundry ship :P has manufacturing facilities


Yeah, that flash content part of the scifi.com website said something about it posessing capabilities to recycle and repair ships, which would mean manufacture if used right.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Colonel-Colt on November 28, 2006, 02:43:40 AM
Quote from: Ender;49411
who says glactica cant produce fighters, we know the chief threw the blackbird together in a matter of days, the only reason it was mentioned was because pegasus was just starting or perhaps pegasus could mass produce them. i tihnk galactica can produce vipers or other ships although htey may be of less quality


The blackbird was special, because it was built lol. The galactica has no ship building capabilities, thats why they built the blackbird entirely by hand, the Pegasus would have modern production facilities, IE could make them by machines, make them faster, make them better, and could use parts easier. Sure galactica could make more fighters, but thats like saying every single ship in all twelve colonies could make a viper, if they got enough people and supplies to do it.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 28, 2006, 03:40:52 AM
right. like colt said, the galactica could make new vipers... by hand.. the reason the pegasus was said to be able to make them was because it had the facilities with machines and assembly lines like a modern day car company, or plane company like boeing. where as galactica being older doesnt have the facilities. the foundry ship can make the parts, and they probably could make vipers, if they dont already have the ability they could likely make their own machines to make some.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on November 28, 2006, 08:19:31 AM
Well a foundry ship just necessitates the ability to refine metals, not put them into production. It's also worth pointing out that it isnt just fighters the manufacturing facilities were supposed to make, it was probably also FTL parts, etc. What happens when THOSE start breaking and you have to move some people off of ships and cram them into others?

I would like to say that this is an interesting comment on how the Colonials were prepared to fight a conceivable war, one that dictated their ship design. First, Galactica is able to recycle its water for up to a couple years without repleneshment. That's the beginning of this trend. Then you fast forward to Pegasus, which is able to manufacture new fighters/ammo/etc.  They were prepared to fight a war that was away from home and support facitlies.
This brings me back to the whole "red-line" thing: how can it be unexplored space? If you're prepared to fight that kind of war you had damned well know the outlying territory surrounding your home, otherwise you won't be able to effectively implement your fighting-away-from-home strategy, which would make the enemy find you (who theoretically has a better idea of the lay of the system than he does). Also, this means that there might have been ships out beyond Colonial territory, scouting and whatnot, and they might have been able to survive the strike on Colonial assets. And, as for the "no jump in thirty years" comment from Tigh in the miniseries, it's pretty obvious that is bullshit: how did Valkyrie get to the border without jumping? That might be a misinterpretation on my part.
Those are just a couple things I've had running around in my head.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Fish on November 28, 2006, 08:39:07 AM
Colonial ships must have done jumps prior to the miniseries. Cally mentions that she doesn't "like this part". Can someone find the quote where it says that jumps haven't been done before?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dusty on November 28, 2006, 09:29:34 AM
I think Gaeta said that he'd not plotted a jump that far before when Adama asked him to plot a jump from their position near Caprica to Ragnar Anchorage, and Adama replied "nobody has". From this I imagine jumps where routinely done, but not to the distances they likely do now. I also remember Tigh was quite worried as to the prospect of them jumping to Ragnar, but more due to the fact Galactica's FTL drive hadn't been used in over 20 years, he was probably worried it would malfunction due to lack of usage/cobwebs in the system :lol:
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Colonel-Colt on November 28, 2006, 05:29:08 PM
Quote from: Dusty;49454
I think Gaeta said that he'd not plotted a jump that far before when Adama asked him to plot a jump from their position near Caprica to Ragnar Anchorage, and Adama replied "nobody has". From this I imagine jumps where routinely done, but not to the distances they likely do now. I also remember Tigh was quite worried as to the prospect of them jumping to Ragnar, but more due to the fact Galactica's FTL drive hadn't been used in over 20 years, he was probably worried it would malfunction due to lack of usage/cobwebs in the system :lol:


What Dusty said, it was obvious in the Mini that they used FTL alot, but when I mentioned Tighs comment, I mean he was directing it towards galactica, since she hasnt seen any action or anything she hasnt had the need to jump in over thirty years, not that noone has jumped in those years, just galactica hasnt.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 29, 2006, 01:06:13 AM
all are right, the having not made a jump comment was referring to galactica's jump drives having not been used, and because gaeta says he hasnt made a jump that far and adama's response, it shows that the other ships do make jumps... just not as long as the one they were about to do, the longer the jump, the more complicated the process becomes. the proof that the colonies do make jumps is the fact that the rest of the fleet is much newer the galactica, and colonial one, and the other "passenger jet" type transport ships were created specifically to jump between planets in the colonies. also backing that up would be cally's comment that she doesnt like this part.... i think she's less then 30 years old, so that means she's been on another ship at some time, that has made jumps.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on November 29, 2006, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: Josh_88;49557
all are right, the having not made a jump comment was referring to galactica's jump drives having not been used, and because gaeta says he hasnt made a jump that far and adama's response, it shows that the other ships do make jumps... just not as long as the one they were about to do, the longer the jump, the more complicated the process becomes. the proof that the colonies do make jumps is the fact that the rest of the fleet is much newer the galactica, and colonial one, and the other "passenger jet" type transport ships were created specifically to jump between planets in the colonies. also backing that up would be cally's comment that she doesnt like this part.... i think she's less then 30 years old, so that means she's been on another ship at some time, that has made jumps.


If Galactica was in active service prior to her decommissioning ceremony, and if the Colonials were prepared to fight a war that would involve them jumping battlegroups into unpopulated systems, and they presumably undertook wargame training exercises, how could Galactica NOT have made any jumps in thirty years?

Pure speculation (we're all about that here I guess), but maybe that comment was referring to the length of the single jump.  Possibly Colonials are used to making a series of shorter jumps which might not be as hard for whatever reason as one big jump.

But then, who knows. It probably was just some comment thrown in there before RDM figured out how he was going to lay out the rest of the story in the series.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on November 29, 2006, 06:01:55 PM
The Colonials seemed to be in only one system, maybe a few, though. It's quite possible Galactica has been serving in a semi-static defensive role for Caprica all that time, with occasional slowboating trips around.

And not using the jumpdrives would have developed a kind of inertia after maybe a year or so.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Colonel-Colt on November 29, 2006, 06:04:55 PM
Actually, just because she was in active service doesnt mean she would have jumped, many ships relied on sublights only, and when all she's really doing is guarding, because she wouldnt be doing war training (If they started a war ships like Galactica woulda been left behind, to guard the colonies and because they'd slow everyone else down) so she coulda just flew around slowly.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on November 29, 2006, 06:28:38 PM
Quote from: Colonel-Colt;49618
Actually, just because she was in active service doesnt mean she would have jumped, many ships relied on sublights only, and when all she's really doing is guarding, because she wouldnt be doing war training (If they started a war ships like Galactica woulda been left behind, to guard the colonies and because they'd slow everyone else down) so she coulda just flew around slowly.


Yeah, but all the warships we've seen, with the exception of vipers, have jump drives.  And regardless of whether or not ships like Galactica would have been left behind, we've seen enough of Adama's strategy to assume that they would have have to be able to jump, and well versed in the process as a maneuvering necessity. You think just because a ship is left behind on defense means that it wouldn't train to go out and meet the enemy wherever they showed up, or to engage the enemy before he could close with military or civilian assets? It's absolutely rediculous to assume that any ship that was on active duty would never participate in jump training. It's akin to having a sword and not sharpening it.
Besides, if ships like Galactica were meant to serve as a force like you had described, and not to jump, why wouldn't their jump engines have been stripped out to serve as spares for other older ships on other duties?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on November 29, 2006, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: ngtm1r;49617
The Colonials seemed to be in only one system, maybe a few, though. It's quite possible Galactica has been serving in a semi-static defensive role for Caprica all that time, with occasional slowboating trips around.

And not using the jumpdrives would have developed a kind of inertia after maybe a year or so.


You might be right about inertia, but I maintain that jump training is part of battle training, which is a part of battle readiness. And, with Adama refusing to allow computers to be networked aboard a ship under his command as a part of being battle ready, I think that it is also plausible to believe that he would undertake jumps as a training exercise in order to maintain that particular aspect of battle readiness.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Colonel-Colt on November 29, 2006, 09:00:17 PM
Quote from: lazarus3d;49623
You might be right about inertia, but I maintain that jump training is part of battle training, which is a part of battle readiness. And, with Adama refusing to allow computers to be networked aboard a ship under his command as a part of being battle ready, I think that it is also plausible to believe that he would undertake jumps as a training exercise in order to maintain that particular aspect of battle readiness.


Unless the admiralty ordered the Galactica to not jump, and to just sit there. It was said in the Mini that she hadnt jumped for over 30 years, so regardless of why, that fact remains.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on November 30, 2006, 01:06:22 AM
well they said that, after the valk incident, they moved adama to galactica as a sort of punishment, the old soldier, put on the old ship, to just sit around and eventually fade away, along with the ship when it finally got decommissioned. it seems to me that they were planning on galactica being a museum for a long time, and really just keeping it around because it was more of a thing to look at, a name to revere as the first in a line of greatness.... and while the name and idea was sort of edified they relegated the ship to menial tasks because it was so old, and not nearly as impressive or powerful as the other 100+ battlestars they had. following those lines why would they have/allow him to make jumps and wear out their jump drives, so they have to waste time and resources on a ship that they had mentally decommissioned already. just my idea. no reason at all that id be right, its just what i think
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: The Trivial Psychic on December 01, 2006, 01:42:24 AM
Regarding the "Red Line", I'm guessing that its a perimeter within which there is more consistent and updated data on navigation, which makes jumps within it safer than beyond it.  However, the book "The Cylon's Secret" states that there were outposts beyond this red line, prior to the war.  These consisted mostly of mining stations and scientific research facilities... nothing as major as a colony or military outpost.  When the war came, many of these were eliminated by the Cylons, being outside the protective envelope that newly-commissioned Colonial Navy could cover.  After the war, the economic and technological loss kept the colonies from expanding to their previous sphere of influence, though there were pirates and scavengers that would raid the remains of these former facilities for anything of value, and the Colonial Navy also had the Galactica on patrol there checking out for any survivors.  They must be some distance out, since the return trip was said to last 3 weeks, even with FTL.

Its also worth saying, that the book in question is non-canon, and in fact is contradicted by the events of "Hero".  The book has Adama being given command of the Galactica 20 years after the end of the war, rather than somewhat more recently given Adama's apparent age during the "Hero" flashback.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Tikey on December 01, 2006, 04:49:57 AM
But for how long was Adama in command of the Galactica?
It must have been years to get him so attached to the ship and it's crew.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 01, 2006, 05:00:03 AM
He served aboard the Galactica when he was a Viper ace in 1CW that at least explains the love of the old girl.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Tikey on December 01, 2006, 05:01:49 AM
woya
Didn't know that.
Did they mention it in one of the episodes?
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: karajorma on December 01, 2006, 09:22:38 AM
I suspect that Adama must have commanded the Galactica for a fairly long time, been transfered to the Valkyrie and then sent back to the Galactica. We're told in the mini series that Adama didn't let them upgrade the Galactica and that makes no sense if he wasn't its CO at the time.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Snagger on December 01, 2006, 10:28:22 AM
There are a few inaccuracies here.  

There has never been any indaction that Adama previously ioperated on Galactica in any capacity other than as a Viper pilot 40+ years before (and that he was aboard at the end of the Cylon War when she was boarded, hence his comment to Roslin about "many good people dying aboard this ship" when she asked for the network).  He must have been in command for a reasonable period before the new attacks in order to be so familiar with the vessel and its crew, but that can't be mush more than 2 years.

The Galactica has most certainly been upgraded over the years.  All that has been done by Adama is the prevention of networking of the computers and the more frequent disabling of automated systems (like the Vipers' autoland - Apollo in the mini).  This comes from his personal experience in the Galactica boarding incident, where the networks were used by the Cylons against them (from the Adama/Tigh deleted drinking scene).
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on December 01, 2006, 01:54:21 PM
I was first tipped to this image by the firstones forums, check it out:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Dossier.png

Here is a breakdown of this timeline (I'm guessing whoever submitted it saw a better, fully HD image):

In "Hero", William Adama's dossier can be seen. Here are a list of dates from Adama's past that the dossier contains:

    H5/21290 Birth of William Adama
    D6/21311 First commission, Battlestar Galactica, fighter squadron
    E4/21312 Commendation for shooting down Cylon fighter in first combat mission.
    D5/21314 Mustered out of service post-armistice
    R6/21317 Served as Deck Hand in merchant fleet and as common […] aboard inter-colony tramp freighters
    D1/21331 Recomissioned to Fleet
    D6/21337 Major: Battlestar Atlantia
    R8/21341 Executive Officer: Battlestar Columbia
    C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
    C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica


There has been A LOT of discussion over at firstones regarding the time discontinuity created by this 'canon' timeline, namely the fact that in 'Hero,' Bulldog was captured three years ago, and at that time by this timeline shown, Adama was already in command of Galactica; was he given special command of a jump-capable ship for the mission, or was it a screw-up?  Befuddling all that even more is Tigh's comment that the Bulldog commission was the reason for Adama's 'graceful retirement' aboard Galactica.  Perhaps they gave him command of Galactica, told him if he did well on the Bulldog mission they would give him a better battlestar, then moved him back when he 'failed'

Regardless the questions raised, that image is pretty indisputable, since the document was created for and used in the show.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Tikey on December 01, 2006, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: karajorma;49772
I suspect that Adama must have commanded the Galactica for a fairly long time, been transfered to the Valkyrie and then sent back to the Galactica. We're told in the mini series that Adama didn't let them upgrade the Galactica and that makes no sense if he wasn't its CO at the time.


Perhaps the refusal to network the computers of the Galactica is common to all it's commanders.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on December 01, 2006, 10:31:09 PM
Tikey, i dont think so, thats been a very adama deal, he doesnt like networks, because of his experiences with them.

and dukeman's explanation seems to make sense, perhaps he already had galactica, they gave him the valk for that mission and if it went well he could keep it, so he wanted (his men... ie bulldog, tigh, etc) but after it got frakked up, they gave him galactica back
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on December 03, 2006, 02:21:08 AM
Quote from: Snagger;49775
There are a few inaccuracies here.  

There has never been any indaction that Adama previously ioperated on Galactica in any capacity other than as a Viper pilot 40+ years before (and that he was aboard at the end of the Cylon War when she was boarded, hence his comment to Roslin about "many good people dying aboard this ship" when she asked for the network).  He must have been in command for a reasonable period before the new attacks in order to be so familiar with the vessel and its crew, but that can't be mush more than 2 years.

The Galactica has most certainly been upgraded over the years.  All that has been done by Adama is the prevention of networking of the computers and the more frequent disabling of automated systems (like the Vipers' autoland - Apollo in the mini).  This comes from his personal experience in the Galactica boarding incident, where the networks were used by the Cylons against them (from the Adama/Tigh deleted drinking scene).


Cutscenes aren't canon according to RDM.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on December 03, 2006, 02:23:34 AM
Quote from: Josh_88;49832
Tikey, i dont think so, thats been a very adama deal, he doesnt like networks, because of his experiences with them.

and dukeman's explanation seems to make sense, perhaps he already had galactica, they gave him the valk for that mission and if it went well he could keep it, so he wanted (his men... ie bulldog, tigh, etc) but after it got frakked up, they gave him galactica back


Why would the admiralty undermine the command structure of two ships by transferring a commanding officer and XO in and out like a pair of guys on a bungee cord? They expect the commander to come back to his old ship in failure after being promoted and still be able to command effectively? Hell no.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on December 03, 2006, 03:52:09 AM
Quote from: lazarus3d;49920
Why would the admiralty undermine the command structure of two ships by transferring a commanding officer and XO in and out like a pair of guys on a bungee cord?


Two words:  Covert Operations.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on December 03, 2006, 03:57:03 AM
Quote from: Dukeman42;49931
Two words:  Covert Operations.


Oh that's BS and  you know it. They'd use an existing ship with its existing command structure.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Josh_88 on December 03, 2006, 04:04:54 AM
not if the valk was specifically suited for the mission being newer then the galactica. it makes sense to me. adama had the experience for the mission, but galactica didnt have what was needed to complete it. it was very clear in the show that the reason he went to the valk was because of that mission, and he clearly said he wanted his men, in reference to bulldog, and tigh as well.... and after screwing the mission up, he gets sent back to galactica to retire gracefully on the "bucket" while he and the ship rot away as a flying museum... the equivalent to being sent to some remote military base in BFE as a punishment, like we see in movies, were failures get shipped off to the coldest crappiest place the military can find....  it seems logical, plus, the admiralty may have had a lot more going on then we (through adama's memories) know about.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: ngtm1r on December 03, 2006, 05:57:31 AM
It still doesn't make any sense. Lazarus is correct. You don't screw up the command structure like that. If you want to put somebody more experienced in command you'd put him in charge over Valkyrie's normal captain, not replacing him.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on December 03, 2006, 06:01:03 AM
*shrug* well, it's believable in my mind, and I guess that's all that matters.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 03, 2006, 06:13:54 AM
um maybe i just have trouble reading but the dossier says he was on ATL, Coloumbia, Valk, then Galactica why is thier questions about the timeline? Do we know what the current date is in the series? I dont quite recall it ever being mentioned.  He screws the pooch three years ago commanding Valkyrie and he gets stuck on Galactica in 21348.  That gives him around 2 years to settle in on Galactica before the big nuke-a-thon.


EDIT> Belay that,  if we key his mustering out to be the same year as armistice then it should have been 213154 at the time of the nuke-a-ton and 6 years after he took command of Galactica.  Of course if Husker hung on to service for three years post armisitce then the timeline would be golden :P
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on December 03, 2006, 06:23:02 AM
Quote from: Dukeman42;49785

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Dossier.png


    H5/21290 Birth of William Adama
    D6/21311 First commission, Battlestar Galactica, fighter squadron
    E4/21312 Commendation for shooting down Cylon fighter in first combat mission.
    D5/21314 Mustered out of service post-armistice
    R6/21317 Served as Deck Hand in merchant fleet and as common [] aboard inter-colony tramp freighters
    D1/21331 Recomissioned to Fleet
    D6/21337 Major: Battlestar Atlantia
    R8/21341 Executive Officer: Battlestar Columbia
    C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
    C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica


At the time of the mini, the Cylons had not been seen in 'over 40 years,' not since the armistice.  if the armistice was in 21314 (if Adama shot down a Raiter in 21312, then the armistice likely occured no earlier than 21313), then at the very least the time in the miniseries was 21354.  Bulldog was captured about a year before the holocaust (21354), so the time when Bulldog returned was sometime in or around 21357.

In light of this information, that means that when Adama was supposedly commanding Valkyrie for the covert mission in 21353, the dossier shown in the show claims he was already commanding Galactica at that point.  That information, coupled with Adama's request to 'use his own people' indicates discretionary command of Valkyrie on detached covert duty.

Simple answer: writers and props screwed up the dates; but now it is up to us to rationalize the discrepencies, and put the pieces together as understandably as we can.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: StarSlayer on December 03, 2006, 06:55:49 AM
You are correct sir! well ill just file that away in the "things ignore for love of bsg" folder right next to the VIIs having a non funtioning third gun ;)  Though im thinking its sad that someone originally took the time to do the math and spot the discrepency in the first place
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on December 03, 2006, 07:06:52 AM
Quote from: StarSlayer;49947
Though im thinking its sad that someone originally took the time to do the math and spot the discrepency in the first place


thank goodness it wasn't me...you can thank some particularly bored and unforgiving individuals over at firstones.com for the cue to this;)  Some of them are considering no longer watching the show because of the 'rubbish' of the past four episodes (I know, I don't get it either), which is no skin off my back, though I feel sorry for them that they can't look past the inevitable failings of human writers, directors and actors and enjoy the character development and dramatic entertainment.  And it gets a little annoying to join the discussions over there, just waiting for the negative bitching by these people who have 'lost faith.'  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when they say 'the show is dead to me know; I'm going to keep watching to see how it ends, but it sucks' every other post, it gets old;)
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: lazarus3d on December 03, 2006, 07:25:57 AM
Quote from: Josh_88;49934
not if the valk was specifically suited for the mission being newer then the galactica. it makes sense to me. adama had the experience for the mission, but galactica didnt have what was needed to complete it. it was very clear in the show that the reason he went to the valk was because of that mission, and he clearly said he wanted his men, in reference to bulldog, and tigh as well.... and after screwing the mission up, he gets sent back to galactica to retire gracefully on the "bucket" while he and the ship rot away as a flying museum... the equivalent to being sent to some remote military base in BFE as a punishment, like we see in movies, were failures get shipped off to the coldest crappiest place the military can find....  it seems logical, plus, the admiralty may have had a lot more going on then we (through adama's memories) know about.


He wanted his men to run ops related to the stealth star, rather than bringing in a seperate unit to run stealth star ops from his ship.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Dukeman42 on December 03, 2006, 07:53:29 AM
Quote from: lazarus3d;49951
He wanted his men to run ops related to the stealth star, rather than bringing in a seperate unit to run stealth star ops from his ship.

Open to interpretation...as has been clearly proven here.  It's not necessarily that he's wrong, or you're right...the actor, director and writers are the only ones who know exactly what it means.  

I respect your 'interpretation,' but I still believe that the 'specops detachment' interpretation holds greater credence, especially in light of the timeline, which, even if it was 'off' or poorly thought out, should be taken into account, as it was shown in the show, and is therefore canon.

In the canon timeline (written and spoken), Adama had been commanding Galactica at the time of the stealth mission aboard Valkyrie.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: karajorma on December 03, 2006, 11:08:20 AM
Quote from: Dukeman42;49948
thank goodness it wasn't me...you can thank some particularly bored and unforgiving individuals over at firstones.com for the cue to this;)  Some of them are considering no longer watching the show because of the 'rubbish' of the past four episodes (I know, I don't get it either), which is no skin off my back, though I feel sorry for them that they can't look past the inevitable failings of human writers, directors and actors and enjoy the character development and dramatic entertainment.


Okay before I get into this I'm going to say that I love B5 to death and think that pretty much every single modern sci-fi show that doesn't push the reset button at the end of each episode owes it an enormous debt of gratitude for paving the way.

However where in hell do B5 fanbois get off complaining about continuity errors between the pilot episode and the series? Just between The Gathering and And the Sky Full of Stars we see the laser guns disappear, the first officer vanish without ever being mentioned again and Delenn get radical facial reconstruction.

Maybe it's just that I've watched B5 more but I've spotted far more continuity errors there than in BSG.
Title: Valkyrie pics (warning spoilers for HERO)
Post by: Snagger on December 03, 2006, 09:17:23 PM
Quote from: Dukeman42;49955
Open to interpretation...as has been clearly proven here.  It's not necessarily that he's wrong, or you're right...the actor, director and writers are the only ones who know exactly what it means.  

I respect your 'interpretation,' but I still believe that the 'specops detachment' interpretation holds greater credence, especially in light of the timeline, which, even if it was 'off' or poorly thought out, should be taken into account, as it was shown in the show, and is therefore canon.

In the canon timeline (written and spoken), Adama had been commanding Galactica at the time of the stealth mission aboard Valkyrie.


It was no detatchment - Adama and Tigh were posted to Galactica as a punishment.  Tigh said so when Bulldog asks him what happened to the Valkyrie.  The dates in the dossier are just a cockup.