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Hosted => Battlestar Galactica: Beyond the Red Line => Tmp2 => Topic started by: Squirrel on November 10, 2006, 08:00:35 PM

Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Squirrel on November 10, 2006, 08:00:35 PM
First I thought that a squadron is in a wing like in FS2. Then I saw the website of the 58th and saw that they just flip it. I became uncertain. Searched a bit, saw some articles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron) and made the structure that way. Akula did it also that way.

Now Darkhalf argue that that will confusing a lot of (FS2) people. What is the right using of squadron and wing?
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: KypFisto on November 10, 2006, 08:05:27 PM
I'm not sure where you saw we had flipped the usual organization. I have a group of flights under one squadron, and four of our squadrons make up our airwing/arigroup depending upon what you want to call it.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: PsychoticShroom on November 10, 2006, 10:53:55 PM
A squadron goes into a wing

to be exact, a squadron is made up of 10-15 fighters, and a wing is made up of 4-6 squadrons
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: nimrod77 on November 10, 2006, 10:56:40 PM
Here's an example how it works...

2 flights = 1 Squadron
2 Squadrons = 1 Wing
2 Wings = 1 Group
2 Groups = 1 Formation.

HTH,
Nimrod
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Nahema on November 10, 2006, 11:25:09 PM
From playing I was under the impression a Squadron consisted out of multiple wings Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc all belonging to the same squadron, at leats that's the impression FS gave me.
That's not the only thing FS has messed up, in fs the biggest capship class is destroyer class and cruisers are below that.
But in real navies I believe cruiser class vessels are considerably larger then destroyers. I could be wrong ofc.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: ZildjianO0 on November 11, 2006, 12:19:08 AM
In FS2, the words "wing" and "flight" seem to be interchangeable.  I think official terminology has a wing of fighters being the equivalent to a battalion or other large group.  So it looks like FS2 used "wing" because it may have sounded cool instead of accurate.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Intrinsica on November 11, 2006, 12:29:18 AM
Unless I'm mistakened, the 58th's website states that they are an Air Wing, with a set of 4 squadrons in the air wing. Of course, with more pilots there might be more squadrons involved, but we'll see how it goes...
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 11, 2006, 01:04:35 AM
Quote from: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_unit#Hierarchy_of_air_forces)
Hierarchy of air forces

The organization structures of air forces vary between nations: some air forces (such as the United States Air Force and the Royal Air Force) are divided into commands, groups and squadrons; others (such as the Soviet Air Force) have an Army-syle organizational structure.

The Royal Air Force and those Commonwealth air forces which have adopted the RAF model use the following structure:
Command
Group
Station (when operations are being conducted, Groups may directly control Wings)
Wing
Squadron
Flight



Further more, after (and during) WW2 practically all air forces adopted the Finnish tactics of using pairs of planes rather than flights of three. Two-plane unit is almost always the smallest tactical unit in aerial warfare. So a flight can consist of N*2 planes (where N is a natural integer)... usually it's simply a pair of planes doing patrol duties, or it could consist of two pairs, or perhaps three pairs if they are supposed to perform some kind of an attack/assault or intercept mission.

So, when speaking in actual air force terms, "wings" in FS2 actually correspond to "flight". I would also prefer BtRL campaigns to use actual terminology based on actual Air Force hierarchies, especially because it would seem to me that they do that in the series too.


Also you should remember that flight is more of a tactical unit, not actually solid unit. Different pilots may be assigned to different wings in different missions, although naturally they would try to use same combinations to get better results and improve co-operation... but in war time, planes are destroyed and pilots die fast enough that on flight level, the pilot combinations change rapidly.

So, any pilot belongs to a squadron, and squadron belongs into a Wing; flights are more like mission-specific units (and also depend on how many pilots and planes are left to be used), at least that's how I've understood the general idea. Squadrons are the smallest more or less stable units in aerial warfare AFAIK. And they consist of much, much more than just the planes. Chief Tyrol's team is part of Galactica Air Group; every plane or plane pair most likely has assigned mechanics and stuff like that. They are all usually integrated into squadron level.

Anyway, in these terms I would actually place for example Galactica's (current) fighter complement into a Mk.II Wing, Mk.7 Wing and a Raptor Wing, and further divide them into squadrons... perhaps two or three squads per Wing, naturally depending on how much ships and pilots they have at their disposal.

Together the three different Wings would be under Galactica Air Group led by CAG, who is under authority of Galactica Command (Adama Senior). Fits the picture, since they actually speak of "Commander of Air Group" (CAG).

Obviously, the number of Wings and Squadrons may be different from this example. How many pilots do we guesstimate Galactica to have? I have to watch the miniseries again and see if they show how many pilots they have in the briefing room (about); I guess that would be pretty good estimate of nominal strangth - or it could be half of nominal strangth, if the other half is in sleep shift. Ah, whatever...
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: pr3@ch3r on November 11, 2006, 03:45:58 AM
I believe a Wing is 72 fighters but I could be wrong. I think it goes something like
Flight: 3-6 (not limited to)
Squadron: 12
Flight: 72 (6 squadrons)

I think those figures are roughly the 'how its supposed to be' but I doubt even the actual Air force adheres to it when they are +/- fighters and pilots.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: George Sorrell on November 11, 2006, 05:13:56 AM
Quote from: nimrod77;47376
Here's an example how it works...

2 flights = 1 Squadron
2 Squadrons = 1 Wing
2 Wings = 1 Group
2 Groups = 1 Formation.

HTH,
Nimrod


thats back asswards

its breaks down smallest to largest
Element
fight
squadron
group
wing
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Josh_88 on November 11, 2006, 08:28:00 AM
haha, nobody has agreed with anyone else's breakdown yet... so i might as well throw out another one just because everyone seems to be

2 platoons= 1 flight
2 flights= 1 wheel
3 wheels= 4 bears
12 bears= 1 wing
and 2 wings = 1 gaggle

thats what i think... although i could be wrong.... wait.... yeah, i could be wrong..... :-) haha
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Admiral Ace on November 11, 2006, 10:48:14 AM
lol Josh. It might have been funny...anyway.

That's a question of vocabulary. Here in France, as far as I know, the terms of "wing" and "flight" are as much interchangeable. All that is pretty sure is that a squadron is made of 12 elements. As soon as the terms are explained in BtRL, it should be fine whatever.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: ngtm1r on November 11, 2006, 11:57:15 AM
Wing and Group are often used interchangeably in the USN; that seems most appropriate to Galactica as being most appropriate to the experience of the people making it.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: karajorma on November 11, 2006, 11:58:26 AM
We're doing what the series does.

We just need to figure out what the hell that is first :p
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Squirrel on November 11, 2006, 12:00:58 PM
Quote from: karajorma;47429
We're doing what the series does.

We just need to figure out what the hell that is first :p


:lol:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Admiral Ace on November 11, 2006, 05:33:17 PM
Ok, I'm gonna give you Adama's private cellphone, then you'll be able to ask him ;) But...mind the telephone rate :lol:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Dodger on December 03, 2006, 01:23:31 PM
http://unsd.macrossroleplay.org/squads.php

this brings new wind to the old wing/squad/flight discussion!
i know these are macross ranks but who cares!

has bill answered the call yet??
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 03, 2006, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: nimrod77;47376
Here's an example how it works...
 
2 flights = 1 Squadron
2 Squadrons = 1 Wing
2 Wings = 1 Group
2 Groups = 1 Formation.
 
HTH,
Nimrod

(The 58th Air Wing has 3 flights per squadron and 4 squadrons and is part of the 54th Air group)
 
3 flights = 1 squadron      
2-4 squadrons = 1 Air Wing
2 Air Wings = 1 Air Group    
2 Air Groups = 1 Battlestar Group  
 
Quote from: Nahema;47378
From playing I was under the impression a Squadron consisted out of multiple wings Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc all belonging to the same squadron, at leats that's the impression FS gave me.
That's not the only thing FS has messed up, in fs the biggest capship class is destroyer class and cruisers are below that.
But in real navies I believe cruiser class vessels are considerably larger then destroyers. I could be wrong ofc.

You're not wrong and Corvettes are supposed to be the smallest class of warship yet they're bigger than cruisers in FS2 as well! :squeeze:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Squirrel on December 03, 2006, 01:36:45 PM
My Proposal:

4 fighter = 1 Squadron
(max.) 8 Squadron = 1 Wing

Simple system I think.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 03, 2006, 01:38:22 PM
The 58th has 3 flights per squadron and (guessing a bit) 2 figters per flight so about 4-6 fighters, yeh.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Coota0 on December 03, 2006, 05:22:28 PM
USN-

Section= 2 aircraft (section lead and his wingman, lead is usually an O-2 or O-3)
Flight= 4 aircraft (2 sections, lead is usually an O-3 or O-4)
Squadron=anywhere from 4-14 aircraft depending on type, for fighters usually 12-14 (Commanded by an O-5)
Wing/Air Group= all the squadrons assigned to a specific carrier, no matter what the aircraft type (Commanded by the Commander Air Group (CAG) an O-6)
The Navy has an adminstartive grouping for all the aircraft on the East or West coast of the U.S. including those assigned to the Wings commanded by an O-7 or O-8, Navy land based aircraft have a slightly different oragnization.

USMC-
Section= 2 aircraft (section lead and his wingman, lead is usually an O-2 or O-3)
Flight= 4 aircraft (2 sections, Usually lead by an O-3 or O-4)
Squadron=anywhere from 4-14 aircraft depending on type, for fighters usually 12-14. (Commanded by an O-5)
Marine Air Group-usually three squadrons of all the same type of aircraft, sometimes all the aircraft at a base (Commanded by an O-6)
Marine Air Wing= squadrons and groups spread over a geographic area (i.e. east coast or west coast) mostly for adminstrative purposes (Commanded by an O-7 or O-8)

Air Combat Element (or ACE)= All of the aircraft assigned to a MEU(SOC) onboard the LHA or LHD (kinda like little carriers, but without the cats or arrestor cables, but carry a bunch of Marines) The ACE is commanded by an O-5
p.s. MEU(SOC) Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable)- group of three to four Navy ships that transport Marines and acts as a forward deployed landing force

It gets really confusing when you start assigning Marine Squadrons to Navy air wings for a cruise.

USAF-
Element-2 aircraft (Lead and Wingman, usually lead by an O-3, but sometimes an O-2)
Flight- 2 elements (usually lead by an O-4, but sometimes an O-3)
Squadron- 12-16 aircraft (depends on the type, commanded by an O-6)
Group- usually all the aircraft of either a specific type or all the aircraft under one command at a base (O-6 or sometimes an O-7)
Wing-typically two or more groups (O-7 or O-8 in command)

Wing and Group are used alot for adminstrative purposes because the USAF also has allof their support elements broken into squadrons and groups, these fall within the overall Wing and Group structure with the aircraft. USAF squadrons don't often deploy as wings, but as squadrons with flights or squadrons from support units to make up a group. There are exceptios to this, the USAF has a couple of Composite Wings, that are like mini-airforces that can be forward deployed to trouble spots, they include support units, fighters, attack aircraft and bombers, the Commander is either an O-6 or O-7)

Army-
In the Army it depends on the aircraft type or mission of the unit
CH-47 Chinook Heavy Lift
Flight-2 aircraft (lead and wing, lead is usually a CW-3 or CW-4, sometimes an experienced O-2 or O-3)
Section- 4 aircraft (Commanded by an O-1 or O-2, with 6 or 7 Warrant Officers)
Platoon- 8 aircraft (Commanded by an O-3)
There is also an HQ/support element as part of the Company
Company-16 aircraft (commanded by an O-3 or O-4)

UH-60Blackhawk Genreal Support
Flight- 2 aircraft (lead and wing, lead is usually a CW-3 or CW-4, sometimes an experienced O-2 or O-3)
Platoon- 4 aircraft (commanded by an O-1 or O-2, with 7 Warrant Officers)
Company- 8 aircraft (Commanded by an O-3)
No HQ element, but crewchiefs for each aircraft are assigned to the Company other support comes from outside the Company

OH-58D Air Cav Light Attack/ Scout Troop
Flight- 2 aircraft (lead and wing, lead is usually a CW-3 or CW-4, sometimes an experienced O-2 or O-3)
Platoon- 4 aircraft (commanded by an O-1 or O-2, with 7 Warrant Officers)
Troop- 8 aircraft (Commanded by an O-3) No HQ element, but crewchiefs for each aircraft are assigned to the Company other support comes from outside the Company
 

UH-60 Blackhawk Air Cavalry/ Air Assault Company
Flight-2 aircraft (lead and wing,lead is usually a CW-3 or CW-4, sometimes an experienced O-2 or O-3)
Platoon- 5 aircraft (commanded by an O-1 or O-2, with 9 Warrant Officers)
Troop (if Air Cav)/ Company (if Air Assault)- 15 aircraft (Commanded by an O-3) No HQ element, but crewchiefs for each aircraft are assigned to the Company other support comes from outside the Company


AH-64 Apache
Flight-2 aircraft (lead and wing, lead is usually a CW-3 or CW-4, sometimes an experienced O-2 or O-3)
Platoon- 4 aircraft (commanded by an O-1 or O-2, with 7 Warrant Officers)
Company- 8 aircraft (Commanded by a O-3) No HQ element, but crewchiefs for each aircraft are assigned to the Company other support comes from outside the Company

Squadron (if Air Cav)/ Battalion -made up of 2-3 Troops/ Companies (Commanded by a O-5), sometimes but not always deployed together and stationed at the same base.

Brigade- all the air battalions within a major unit (example: all of the aviation units in the 1st Cavalry Division) Commanded by an O-6.

In the Army the organizational chart often has a more senior officer in charge on the ground, but in the air the Warrant Officers often lead the mission because of their experience.

Clear as mud, right? :rolleyes:

I have no idea how our allies make up their aviation units. I don know that the Soviets used and the Chinese use Army designations for their Air Forces, ie. A Regiment is the equivelent to a Group or Wing in our Air Forces.

From what I've seen of BSG it seems that the show uses a modified version of the USN format. The grouping of aircraft are the same, but the Ranks of the officers in command are different.

I didn't write out the ranks becuase I didn't want to further confuse anyone.
Resources for anyone curious- USAF, USN, USMC- Tom Clancy has some excellent nonfiction books on the
Navy Air Wing- http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780425166826&itm=1
Marine MEU(SOC)- http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780425154540&itm=1 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780425154540&itm=1)
USAF Composite Wing- http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780425193709&itm=1 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780425193709&itm=1)

The Army has an excellent website with their information- http://www.branchorientation.com/aviation/home.html (http://www.branchorientation.com/aviation/home.html)

Army only *,**
WO-1= Warrant Officer Junior Grade (Silver Bar, one black pip)
CWO-2= Chief Warrant Officer 2 (Silver Bar, 2 black pips)
CWO-3= Chief Warrant Officer 3 (Silver Bar, 3 black pips)
CWO-4= Chief Warrant Officer 4 (Silver Bar, 4 black pips)
CWO-5= Chief Warrant Officer 5 (Silver Bar, solid black stripe down the middle)
*Warrant Officers in the grades of CW-2 and above recieve commsisions, WO-1s recieve Warrants from the Secratary of the Army
**Not to be confused with Navy enlisted rating or Chief Petty Officer (E-7- E-9)

Army, USAF, USMC
O-1= 2nd Lieutenant (Gold Bar)
O-2= 1st Lieutenant (Silver Bar)
O-3= Captain (2 Silver Bars)
O-4= Major (Gold Oak Leaf)
O-5= Lieutenant Colonel (Silver Oak Leaf)
O-6= Colonel (Silver Eagele)
0-7= Brigader General (1 Star)
O-8= Major General (2 Star)
O-9= Lieutenant General (3 Star)
O-10= General (4 Star)

Navy
O-1= Ensign (Gold Bar)
O-2= Lieutenant Junior Grade (Silver Bar)
O-3= Lieutenant (2 Silver Bars)
O-4= Lieutenant Commander (Gold Oak Leaf)
O-5= Commander (Silver Oak Leaf)
O-6= Captain (Silver Eagele)
O-7= Rear Admiral Lower Half/ Commadore*
O-8= Rear Admiral Upper Half
O-9= Vice Admiral
O-10= Admiral
*Commadore is used in reference to the O-7 in charge of a surface squadron
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 03, 2006, 07:02:44 PM
Seems a bit different from the BSG system and the 58th.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Dodger on December 03, 2006, 07:16:13 PM
do you guys think that a poll would help us to solve squad/ wing/ flight/ beehive or whatever discussion??
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Squirrel on December 04, 2006, 08:18:08 AM
A poll could help but actually there are so many different proposals... :doubtful:

If we can't find a consens, I will set up a system for the cylons (after consultation the cylon-community) on my own.

So, I would like to hear some votes from the devs...
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Snagger on December 04, 2006, 08:47:28 AM
Naturally, I'd like the system modelled on the RAF and Commonwealth system, but since the show is based almost entirely on the USN, surely it would stop all arguements if just folllowed the genuine USN system?
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Coota0 on December 04, 2006, 11:35:00 PM
Quote from: Imperator;50024
Seems a bit different from the BSG system and the 58th.


How is it different than BSG? I said that the show uses different ranks.

Of course it's different than the 58th, the 58th made theirs up, they even have enlisted pilots.

Following the USN model is probably the way to go. Moore has even said that he has based a bunch of the flight ops stuff on the USN. He has pretty much made the Galactica an aircraft carrier in space. I bet if Moore wasn't curtailed by the rank structure of the original series, Adama would have been a Captin when the show began.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: StarSlayer on December 05, 2006, 12:59:05 AM
You can still be a Commander while being a ships captain in the USN.  While you get the "Captain" honorific ur offical rank however, i still commander.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Coota0 on December 05, 2006, 02:11:48 AM
Quote from: StarSlayer;50168
You can still be a Commander while being a ships captain in the USN.  While you get the "Captain" honorific ur offical rank however, i still commander.


Yes you can, on a sub, a frigate or a destroyer (maybe) but not aboard a Carrier.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: skippy9146 on December 05, 2006, 02:46:50 AM
Damn, I thought this thread was dead, dead, dead!:wtf:
 
How are things done in BSG...? Only Ron Moore knows for sure.
 
I think that he actually went into it some on one of his SciFi blogs - but it's basically a blend of US Navy's actual structure & whatever sounds good.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Squirrel on December 05, 2006, 08:04:12 AM
Well, then I will set up with "The Cylon Base"-Community (hehe, 10 Members actually) an own structure for the Cylons...

Anyone who would like to discuss the structure for the Cylons is warmly welcome on "The Cylon Base"-Forum. :yes:
Title: Possible Spoiler!
Post by: Madrider on December 05, 2006, 04:07:35 PM
Quote from: StarSlayer;50168
You can still be a Commander while being a ships captain in the USN.  While you get the "Captain" honorific ur offical rank however, i still commander.


Captain in fact is a rank in the Navy. The job they perform is commanding officer (CO); You must be thinking the civilian captains, which equals to the Skipper in the navy.
However, Adama's rank does not conflict with neither his command, nor the story line (as seen in S3 ep8-Hero).
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: StarSlayer on December 05, 2006, 04:27:06 PM
That wasnt my point there is a Commander(CDR silver oak leaf) rank and a Captain(CAPT silver eagle) rank in the USN.  A Commander can be placed in charge of a warship(generally somthing small like a Destroyer), if he does well he can advance to the rank of Captain(if he doesn't then his career is basically lame duck), but while commanding a warship he will still be refered to as "Captain" even though he is still technically a Commander.
Title: I say cheps...
Post by: The Rictus on December 05, 2006, 04:43:15 PM
You're missing one important. canonical source on this matter -

The Royal Air Force, chaps... What ho, we did this stuff first ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force#Wings

Cricket anyone? Oh those darned gerry bombers have come to have a pop at old Blighty again... Scramble fighters then home for tea and scones :lol:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 05, 2006, 04:49:31 PM
Pretty nice, but I think RDM based his stuff on American military, despite the RAF obviously being much more original and better organised! :p
Title: scrambled?
Post by: The Rictus on December 05, 2006, 05:04:12 PM
Agreed - it does make sense. I was just trying a minor wind-up. You caught me out lol...

However, the structure seems rather oddly arranged, for example: a Colonel being responsible to a Commander - although in Royal Navy tradition (back in the sailing ships days) the Captain of the vessel was not necessarily a captain in rank - often a Lt Cdr or a Commander, and the Major, Colonel etc (ie a more army-style rank) was in charge of the marine unit posted to the ship.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Tikey on December 05, 2006, 05:34:29 PM
Well, as I recall, RDM used the USN rank but adapting it to the clasic series because he didn't want to change Commander Adama to Captain Adama, and so on. So it's some strange type of hybrid.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Crixx on December 05, 2006, 05:39:58 PM
There are people in spaceships fighting robots-gone-evil with an infinite supply of alcohol and you're debating the reality of the rank structure?

Deary me :p
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: skippy9146 on December 05, 2006, 07:06:05 PM
Quote from: Crixx;50209
There are people in spaceships fighting robots-gone-evil with an infinite supply of alcohol and you're debating the reality of the rank structure?
 
Deary me :p

:biggrin1:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Snagger on December 05, 2006, 07:38:06 PM
Quote from: The Rictus;50202
You're missing one important. canonical source on this matter -

The Royal Air Force, chaps... What ho, we did this stuff first ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force#Wings

Cricket anyone? Oh those darned gerry bombers have come to have a pop at old Blighty again... Scramble fighters then home for tea and scones :lol:
The RAF Officer ranks, names and insignia are based on the Royal Navy's.  The only difference is the lowest grade: Pilot Officer (with a very thin stripe) vs Midshipman (collar button and tab).

Flying Officer vs Sub Lt (same medium width stripe for both).  Flt Lt = Lt, Sqn Ldr = Lt Cdr, Wing Cdr = Crd, Group Capt = Capt, Air Cmdr = Cmdr, and so on.  The stripes are identical (except in colour and for the Navy's ring on the uppermost stripe) which all harks back to the RAF's heritage in the Royal Flying Corps (Army) and Fleet Air Arm (Navy).
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Coota0 on December 05, 2006, 08:18:16 PM
Quote from: The Rictus;50202
You're missing one important. canonical source on this matter -

The Royal Air Force, chaps... What ho, we did this stuff first ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force#Wings

Cricket anyone? Oh those darned gerry bombers have come to have a pop at old Blighty again... Scramble fighters then home for tea and scones :lol:


Fascinating stuff after the earlier post about the RAF my curiosity was piqued. I love how we do things just to be different than the Brits, for instance in the USAF a group is smaller than a wing. :nod:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: StarSlayer on December 05, 2006, 08:42:37 PM
I would be interested in seeing how the USAF structure fits up against the French Air Force(at least the early WWI era),  the origins of the Army Air Corps latter the USAF has many ties back to the old Lafyette Escardrille of WWI.  American pilots volunteered to fly for the French and those veterans such as Raul Luffberry played a significant role in training the new US flyers(such as Rickenbacker).  If the US carried over more of the French structure then the British, well we know how the French and the Brits get along.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: David Pym on December 05, 2006, 08:56:33 PM
my two cent is that a Wing is made up by many Squadrons but in BSG it seems they are AirGroups which is same as a wing i believe
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: karajorma on December 05, 2006, 10:23:54 PM
Quote from: Crixx;50209
There are people in spaceships fighting robots-gone-evil with an infinite supply of alcohol and you're debating the reality of the rank structure?

Deary me :p


Cause if we don't get it right now the entire team is going to get mauled when the full game comes out :)
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Coota0 on December 05, 2006, 11:35:19 PM
Quote from: StarSlayer;50223
I would be interested in seeing how the USAF structure fits up against the French Air Force(at least the early WWI era),  the origins of the Army Air Corps latter the USAF has many ties back to the old Lafyette Escardrille of WWI.  American pilots volunteered to fly for the French and those veterans such as Raul Luffberry played a significant role in training the new US flyers(such as Rickenbacker).  If the US carried over more of the French structure then the British, well we know how the French and the Brits get along.



Good point I hadn't thought about that.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Coota0 on December 05, 2006, 11:36:12 PM
Quote from: David Pym;50226
my two cent is that a Wing is made up by many Squadrons but in BSG it seems they are AirGroups which is same as a wing i believe


In the Navy airgroup and airwing are pretty interchangeble.
Title: ...
Post by: Tex Arcana on December 06, 2006, 03:05:24 AM
I agree that a common structure needs to be hammered out (whatever system it may be based on. My knowledge stems from R.A.F./R.C.A.F information as well; but I'm sure even a Dolt like me can adhere to a system).
Here's a proposal:
72 craft- Da Bomb.
36 craft- Cheese Cutter.
12 craft- Sail Ripper.
4 craft- Unmistakable Odor.
2 craft- Fart in the Wind.
Hmmm. Might be to "wordy".
Note: Section one of my post is serious, btw ;+).
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Snagger on December 06, 2006, 09:46:43 AM
Excellent!:biggrin1:
Title: Historians ahoy!
Post by: The Rictus on December 06, 2006, 09:47:17 AM
I know it's taking it a little off-topic, but it's nice to see some people posting here who know about the heroes of WW1. Having played Knights of the Sky (first in EGA, then later in VGA!!!) and Red Baron 1 / 2 and enjoyed reading the history associated with it (both RFC/Allies and the German Flying Service) it seems I'm not the only hardened, long-term sim flyer here ;)
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Tex Arcana on December 06, 2006, 06:57:43 PM
IL2 Series, ftw!
I've been a MechWarrior (and Forgotten Hope) for to long: Started playing IL2 after a long hiatus, and have been getting owned by the AI (not ready to go back online yet).
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 06, 2006, 07:01:18 PM
Quote from: StarSlayer;50223
I would be interested in seeing how the USAF structure fits up against the French Air Force(at least the early WWI era), the origins of the Army Air Corps latter the USAF has many ties back to the old Lafyette Escardrille of WWI. American pilots volunteered to fly for the French and those veterans such as Raul Luffberry played a significant role in training the new US flyers(such as Rickenbacker). If the US carried over more of the French structure then the British, well we know how the French and the Brits get along.

We're all one big happy Europe! :)
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: SGT_R22eR on December 10, 2006, 10:14:10 PM
Here is how it is in Canada:

Element:1 aircraft
Flight: 2 to 6 aircrafts (generally 4, depends on mission)
Squadron: 3 Flights
Wing: 3 Squadrons (independent of type ie: Fighter, SAR, etc)

Usually, there is only one Wing per base, so one Wing can have 2 fighter squadrons and a SAR squadron, just like in Bagotville.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 11, 2006, 05:23:45 PM
A bit like the RAF, which makes it good!
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on December 11, 2006, 06:04:00 PM
Quote from: The Rictus;50268
I know it's taking it a little off-topic, but it's nice to see some people posting here who know about the heroes of WW1. Having played Knights of the Sky (first in EGA, then later in VGA!!!) and Red Baron 1 / 2 and enjoyed reading the history associated with it (both RFC/Allies and the German Flying Service) it seems I'm not the only hardened, long-term sim flyer here ;)



Red Baron (original) FTW! :nod:

I still occasionally play it - I got it working prefectly on my WinXP machine through VDMSound - sound blaster sounds, VGA graphics, USB stick support and even a mission editor... It's a great game. Never played the second one, though.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Snagger on December 11, 2006, 08:42:30 PM
Quote from: Imperator;50694
A bit like the RAF, which makes it good!
Pretty much.  Here's a puzzle for you though - why are flights usually commanded by Sqn Ldrs, Sqns by Wg Cdrs and Stations (ie wings) by Gp Capts?  I never did work that one out.:confused:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Coota0 on December 11, 2006, 11:52:14 PM
I bet it has something to do with NATO equivalency. For example, the Squadron leader rank goes back to pre-WWII, and is the equivalent of a Major in the U.S. Military (guessing) so when the rest of NATO decided that Lieutenant Colonels (or the NATO equivalent O-5) should command a Squadron (or Battalion) the RAF had to change it's rank structure to accomadate, making Wing Commanders the C.O.s of a squadron. Just a guess.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: AutobahnSHO on December 12, 2006, 05:15:19 AM
Quote from: karajorma;50231
Cause if we don't get it right now the entire team is going to get mauled when the full game comes out :)


LOL
I haven't done any online playing since, oh, around 1998.  But I'm really excited for this game-

How are the NooBs (or just casual players) going to be treated?
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Josh_88 on December 12, 2006, 07:22:25 AM
oh the noobs will get eaten alive of course :-) haha. then again any of us who havent played will get eaten by people like the devs. I havent played a space/flying sim in who knows how long. so ill be there too. but other then dying a lot, i think everybody will be pretty welcoming to new guys :-)
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: karajorma on December 12, 2006, 07:45:07 AM
Quote from: AutobahnSHO;50751
How are the NooBs (or just casual players) going to be treated?

As meat shields :p

Seriously though I'd like to hope that people will be nice to casual gamers and newbies. If they're not you can always lock games based on rank and only let the players who are just starting out in.

It's worth remembering that unlike the old PXO, FS2NetD is under the communities control (Via Matt or Taylor) and although banning people is a pain it could happen if there is more than an acceptable level of good natured abusiveness from someone :D
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: skippy9146 on December 12, 2006, 02:00:11 PM
Quote from: karajorma;50759
As meat shields :p

ROFL;)
 
I fully expect to be Cannon Fodder myself....:eek2:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Squirrel on December 12, 2006, 02:08:45 PM
Quote from: skippy9146;50778

I fully expect to be Cannon Fodder myself....:eek2:


I have not read that, number 1.  :p
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: skippy9146 on December 12, 2006, 02:40:47 PM
Quote from: Squirrel;50779
I have not read that, number 1. :p

Well... Even Cylons experience a "learning curve"!:nod:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Snagger on December 12, 2006, 06:38:26 PM
Quote from: Squirrel;50779
I have not read that, number 1.  :p


The only game I have ever played online was Air Attack (WWII fighter sim with RAF, ASAAF, Luftwaffe and Japanese teams), about 8 years ago.  They had several arenas, allowing one-on-one, free for all and team games.  The free-for-all had two arenas, with the upper ranks banned (in regs ulations, but not in software) from playing on the lower ranks arena to give the newbs a chance.  

There was still the odd twat who, despite being an Air Marshall or whatever, with the high level of experience and the top end aircraft that were unlocked with the high ranks, would come onto the newbs' arena for some easy kills to boost their stats.  There will always be some who behave like that, so if the MkVII will be available to high rankers only, with newbs starting on MkIIs, then it would be best to lock the seniors out of the newbs' games by software and not rely on good conduct.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: StarSlayer on December 12, 2006, 06:44:04 PM
While its true in earlier iterations the MKVII was a superior ship, with the current tables every craft has its strengths and weakness, none are exactly superior to the others if flown by a pilot who knows how to press the craft's advantages.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Squirrel on December 12, 2006, 06:56:19 PM
Quote from: StarSlayer;50802
While its true in earlier iterations the MKVII was a superior ship, with the current tables every craft has its strengths and weakness, none are exactly superior to the others if flown by a pilot who knows how to press the craft's advantages.


Let us prove it. :nod:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: skippy9146 on December 12, 2006, 07:00:41 PM
Quote from: Squirrel;50803
Let us prove it. :nod:

Yes... Can't wait to see how stats compare between various "flavors" of Viper & how they both stack up to a Cylon Raider.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Crixx on December 12, 2006, 07:47:26 PM
MKIIs have style.

MKVIIs are grey and icky.

End of discussion.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 12, 2006, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Crixx;50809
MKIIs have style.
 
MKVIIs are grey and icky.
 
End of discussion.

The poor old Raptor is molested out the conversation! :lol:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Crixx on December 12, 2006, 08:51:45 PM
Raptors are recon craft.

Let's not even go there.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Imperator on December 12, 2006, 09:01:59 PM
It shot the Cylon Centurians outright in Fragged.
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: Crixx on December 12, 2006, 11:27:34 PM
Still not a saucy number in space, however. RECON CRAFT!
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: skippy9146 on December 13, 2006, 01:49:44 AM
Quote from: Crixx;50827
Still not a saucy number in space, however. RECON CRAFT!

Apparently you haven't seen the "attack" version of the Raptor with 2 big missile pods hung on it...
 
Not a fighter per se, but capable dishing out some hurt all the same!:naughty:
Title: Is a Squadron in a Wing or is a Wing in a Squadron?
Post by: ngtm1r on December 13, 2006, 02:50:44 AM
It's four, not two, they've got a couple underwing as well. And KEWs too, some of them.

It might have been bad picture quality, but I think some of them didn't have the KEW mounts on the wingtips.