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Freespace => FS2NetD => Topic started by: Rezzy on March 23, 2006, 09:18:36 AM

Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Rezzy on March 23, 2006, 09:18:36 AM
Hey I'm new, i followed the instructions on the FAQ but i still keep getting the hacked tables message.

I'm using the following media vps, build and launcher

Launcher 5.3
fs2_open_r-20060306
mv_adveffects
mv_effects
mv_music
mv_models
mv_textures

The media vps are the 3.6.8 versions

I copied and pasted the new tables from the FAQ into my tables folder in data but for some reason i still get the message, any help would be appreciated.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 23, 2006, 09:39:23 AM
You're not doing anything wrong. FS2NetD will give you hacked table warnings with anything other than FS2 Retail tables (e.g the ones in the media VPs).

It means that you can't save your stats but apart from that it won't prevent you from doing anything else.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Rezzy on March 23, 2006, 09:51:25 AM
ahh, thx for the quick reply, stats doesnt matter to me anyway, dont need statistics to make me a good pilot :biggrin1:
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 23, 2006, 03:01:09 PM
When PXO is finally fixed and brought back online it should be possible to save stats using FS2_Open too though :)
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 23, 2006, 03:53:15 PM
Any idea when that could be? This year? Next year? When it's frelling ready? :D
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Linkel on March 23, 2006, 04:51:06 PM
PXO?  Thats great news, I just wanna play some FS2, I can't be arsed to mess about with the data files, so I'll leave the MVP's where they are.  I hope peeps are not too anal about hacked tables :)
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 23, 2006, 07:06:22 PM
delete MV_Core.vp  (or move to another folder if you really value the contents of it, I have never used it so I dont see why you would keep it if you just wanted to play multi.) It is the vp that contains the modified tables.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 23, 2006, 10:07:47 PM
Stop telling people to delete mv_core. It's really fucking bad advice.

If you install the media VPs to another folder you can turn them all off with a single mouse click in the launcher whenever you want to play multi.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 24, 2006, 12:07:38 AM
what makes MV_Core such a vital VP? I have uses SCP a lot lately, and i have no problems AT ALL.

Quote from: karajorma
When PXO is finally fixed and brought back online it should be possible to save stats using FS2_Open too though :)


If they validate FS2 Open tables, the new pxo isnt gunna be fun at all, those tables are cheap as hell. Theres nothing wrong with the 1.2 tables... and you cant have 2 different sets of tables valid, because it will make it appear as some people better then others when they arent, it will make the game play on multi lame. So validating those tables is a bad idea kara.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 24, 2006, 01:19:55 AM
Quote from: '[dw
-hunter']what makes MV_Core such a vital VP? I have uses SCP a lot lately, and i have no problems AT ALL.

Deleting mv_core is idiotic because mv_effects, mv_models and mv_adveffects all contain modular table files. Deleting mv_core achieves nothing at all (not even removal of the hacked tables message due to the above mentioned tbms) and removes the source of several very useful fixes (Turret animation fixes, the HTL jump node, art required for rearming several ships at a time) which you could otherwise use in singleplayer.

As I have said countless times the correct solution is to stick the media VPs in their own folder and run FS2_Open + Media VPs as a mod except when playing multiplayer games.

Quote
If they validate FS2 Open tables, the new pxo isnt gunna be fun at all, those tables are cheap as hell.

And that's just wrong. The media VPs don't alter weapon damage AT ALL. This is the second time I've told you this in as many days and yet you still continue to state it. I went through every single .tbm in the 3.6.7 media VPs and I failed to spot a single change to the damage, range or reload rate of anything.

If you're going to continue to make that claim you'd better back it up with something other than anecdotal evidence.

Quote
Theres nothing wrong with the 1.2 tables... and you cant have 2 different sets of tables valid, because it will make it appear as some people better then others when they arent, it will make the game play on multi lame. So validating those tables is a bad idea kara.

Yet again you're attempting to hold back FS2_Open to preserve your 1999 world. Stop it. There are several possible solutions even if your original supposition that there are differences in the tables had been correct in the first place.

If you don't understand how something in FS2_Open works just ask and I'll be more than happy to explain how. But offering poor advice helps no one especially as your opinion will carry more weight now that you're moderator for this forum.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 24, 2006, 09:36:36 AM
Quote from: karajorma
Yet again you're attempting to hold back FS2_Open to preserve your 1999 world. Stop it. There are several possible solutions even if your original supposition that there are differences in the tables had been correct in the first place.

If you don't understand how something in FS2_Open works just ask and I'll be more than happy to explain how. But offering poor advice helps no one especially as your opinion will carry more weight now that you're moderator for this forum.


I have nothing against SCP... I just dont want to see gameplay be sacrificed for the efficiency of newbies. The reason why i think the tables are modified and cheap is the stats in the game... 10 Hull damage for kayser? wtf is that? thats hella cheap! 3 hits with that and your dead, no skill required. Thats where I get the idea that the SCP tables are dumb to validate, you cant argue with the fact that 10 hull damage isnt cheap either, I know you know that. But if thats old statistics that was hard coded into the build and the weapons table is just about identicle to 1.2 tables then yeah I dont see why you wouldnt validate them...

The whole moderator thing... did not i relize i was one til you told me... but since I am, im going to have to set a role model now arent I? :pimp:
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 24, 2006, 09:59:39 AM
Quote from: '[dw
-hunter']I have nothing against SCP... I just dont want to see gameplay be sacrificed for the efficiency of newbies. The reason why i think the tables are modified and cheap is the stats in the game... 10 Hull damage for kayser? wtf is that? thats hella cheap! 3 hits with that and your dead, no skill required.


Where in hell are you getting that figure from! I can't see it anywhere in my tables. Which version of the media VPs are you using? The SCP make it a point to not change gameplay or unbalance anything. If you've found a bug or an incorrect entry in recent versions of the tables then say where and it will get fixed.

Quote

But if thats old statistics that was hard coded into the build and the weapons table is just about identicle to 1.2 tables then yeah I dont see why you wouldnt validate them...


I don't think any alternative damage levels were ever coded into any build. It would be pretty stupid to do that as it completely ignores the point of having table files in the first place.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 24, 2006, 10:15:38 AM
Quote from: karajorma
I don't think any alternative damage levels were ever coded into any build. It would be pretty stupid to do that as it completely ignores the point of having table files in the first place.


No no not the actual damage statistics, im saying the display ratings in the briefing, It says 10 hull damage for kayser... go look for yourself
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 24, 2006, 10:32:08 AM
The damage listings in the tech room are not related to actual damage caused in the game.
I've just had a look myself, and the damage listings for the Kayser is:
Name            damage    hull      shields
retail Kayser     28      28.00    25.20
SCP Kayser       28     28.00    25.20

To put that into perspective - the subach has a damage rating of 15 - Hull 13.5 - Shields 10.5

If I wanted, I could change one line in the table that would say a subach caused 52 damage in the Tech Rooms, but that wouldn't change the in-game damage.

Additional - The 'dog fight' version of the Kayser is also reduced in damage to damage - 28, shield - 16.8, hull -16.8. A number of other weapons are also nerfed, so the play balance in Multi is likely different to single player.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 24, 2006, 01:01:43 PM
As Road Dancer says those won't make any difference to the gameplay. I'll take a look see if anyone has changed them back to what they should be later though :)
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 24, 2006, 02:21:52 PM
Yeh, looks like someone has just altered the tech room descriptions of some of the weapons away from retail, but the actual damage stats are unchanged as far as I can see.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 24, 2006, 04:12:29 PM
Quote from: Road_Dancer
The damage listings in the tech room are not related to actual damage caused in the game.


I never said they were, but thats what i have been looking at this entire time, so if the weapon table hasent been altered, then what table has? and why?
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 24, 2006, 04:44:38 PM
The format of the weapon table has been altered greatly, to allow for new features (such as beam capable fighters), but the actual specifications for the weapons have not changed. As the file checking will most likely simply perform a CRC or similar, it won't be looking at the weapons themselves, but the 'shape' of the files as a whole. As the 'shape' doesn't match, it's a bad file (sit! DOWN! ohhh, errrrr... not that kind of bad...).
So validator on the server needs to be updated with the new 'shape' of the file, so that it will recgnise it. This would need to be done anytime there is a revision to the table made by the SCP, which may happen if there is new feature implemented...

edit - To Clarify - The important thing to bear in mind is that the tech room has no relation to the actual damage the gun does, therefore, the SCP Kayzer at 10, and the Retail Kayzer at 6, is immaterial, and should not be used to make judgements on game balance issues - only the table can be used for that.
The SCP tech room having different values is effectively a typo that has no in-game effect. Look on it as PR from the manufacturers (Now washes whiter then wh... Wha? It's a Gun?... errr, just say it's more zappy then!), but it's not 'cheap' as it's the same stats. Perhaps the GTVA got sold some counterfeit Kayzers, like overclocked Athlon 2500's being sold as 3200s!
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Linkel on March 24, 2006, 06:37:19 PM
Thats sounds brilliant, so why arn't we using SCP for multiplayer then?  Having to move the files elsewhere is bothersome.  i wish there was a more "collective" effort going on between the SCP and Fs2NET devs.  It seems a bit disjointed at the moment.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 24, 2006, 06:54:19 PM
From what I've garnered, and I fully expect to be corrected on this, it's at least partly to do with fs2netd being seen as a stop-gap until PXO is resurrected.
At the end of the day, all these guys (and gals?) working on SCP and fs2netd are volunteers, so unfortunately for us, sometimes the real world intrudes (what's this 'real world' then? :) ), slowing down projects, or just plain restricting the scope in the first place.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 24, 2006, 07:12:24 PM
Quote from: Linkel
Thats sounds brilliant, so why arn't we using SCP for multiplayer then?  Having to move the files elsewhere is bothersome.  i wish there was a more "collective" effort going on between the SCP and Fs2NET devs.  It seems a bit disjointed at the moment.


Theres a build called Toms build, its based on the retail build, it cant use SCP tables so we run 1.2 tables. Toms build is much more stable on multi-player then SCP, however you run regular 1024 retail graphics on it, because all toms build does is modify the multiplayer, nothing more, which is why its more stable... not to mention toms build has some cool features along with it, very usefull ones too. I have nothing against SCP, i use it too on multiplayer every so often, usually to test SCP missions for other people, but sometimes just to have fun with new graphics. But i dont mind the 1024 graphics so I usually use Toms on multi, i grew up on the 1024, ive been playing multi for 6 years.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 24, 2006, 07:29:27 PM
Hmmmmm... I'm guessing that the PXO project is aiming to have both the 1.2 tables (and therefore Tom's Build) and the SCP tables validated. I wonder how much work it is to do the same for fs2netd? The big problem I actually foresee for validating the SCP tables, is the speed with which the builds come out. I guess the best work around would be to have a seperate "\online" Mod install of the latest official build just for multiplay, then you can tweak the "\mediavps" stuff as much as you like for single-play or multiplay beta testing...
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 24, 2006, 07:50:36 PM
Quote from: Road_Dancer
The big problem I actually foresee for validating the SCP tables, is the speed with which the builds come out. I guess the best work around would be to have a seperate "\online" Mod install of the latest official build just for multiplay, then you can tweak the "\mediavps" stuff as much as you like for single-play or multiplay beta testing...


which is another reason that validating scp tables isnt the best idea. Because that they are made for single and they may change quite a bit to accomodate addons to the newer builds. So then you would have a crap load of tables to validate... Not to mention the coding to have PXO tell the difference between scp and retail tables. But the code shouldnt be a problem, it sounds like a simple task to me but I'm no programer... SCP Tables will most likely be validated though, no matter what, its just up to taylor to decide to update them constantly, or just plain out decide to stick with 1.2 to solve the problem.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 25, 2006, 09:21:37 AM
The 3.6.7 tables haven't changed since September. I don't see much hassle simply validating the latest official set.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 25, 2006, 12:09:28 PM
That's good to hear Kara. What tables does PXO/fs2net check?
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 25, 2006, 06:22:56 PM
From tvalid.cfg
Quote
ai.tbl   valid
asteroid.tbl   valid
credits.tbl   invalid
cutscenes.tbl   invalid
fireball.tbl   valid
help.tbl   valid
hud.tbl   valid
icons.tbl   valid
launchhelp.tbl   valid
lightning.tbl   valid
mainhall.tbl   valid
medals.tbl   invalid
menu.tbl   valid
messages.tbl   invalid
mflash.tbl   valid
music.tbl   valid
nebula.tbl   valid
pixels.tbl   valid
rank.tbl   invalid
ships.tbl   invalid
sounds.tbl   invalid
Species.tbl   invalid
ssm.tbl   valid
stars.tbl   valid
strings.tbl   invalid
tips.tbl   invalid
traitor.tbl   invalid
tstrings.tbl   invalid
weapon_expl.tbl   valid
weapons.tbl   invalid


Looks like all of them :D All the old retail ones at least. No sign of it checking the ones the SCP added yet.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 25, 2006, 08:08:34 PM
Excellent...
If that's the case, I can't see any reason that having the 1.2 and the SCP tables as valid would cause any problems.
Given what we have to do to get the game working in the first place, a little bit of effort to setup a seperate multiplayer folder that only uses the offical files, while keeping any WIP builds seperated is no problem.
Hmmmm... If the SCP ever gets to the point of being able to provide installable packages, then that could be even be built in... and the next official build would simply be like a patch file for most other games.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: taylor on March 26, 2006, 11:32:44 AM
It doesn't need to validate all of the tables anyway, just the ones that would affect multiplayer.  The change to FS2NetD to have it check only the important tables is already on my todo list, and I'm partially through with coding that anyway.  That crap it does now is just wasteful.


The new PXO isn't going to have table validation in the FS2NetD sense.  Table validation was originally (ie, retail) done on the user end, not the server end, and table validation is completely useless for SCP at this point.  Additional table validation may be added for Tom's build to use or something, but otherwise there isn't much point since it doesn't send that detailed info over the network (it only says hacked or not).

Newer SCP versions will employ a per-item validation (if I ever get it working).  That is, not the tbl, but the individual weapon/ship entries will be assigned a CRC and validated by the PXO server against all clients/hosts in the game.  The PXO server itself doesn't actually keep track of the CRCs, it only checks to see if everyone is basically compatible or not, so it won't require any sort of updating to keep validation working.  This is really the only way to keep it working with mods and what not, since PXO itself can't really be expected to always keep up with every SCP version and mod version in use at any given time.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Keleus on March 27, 2006, 06:20:34 AM
How about a major change - server side weapon/ship/etc stats that override tables? And only the stats that matter to MP? That way SCP (or you) can do whatever you want to your tables and when you join an MP game the server forces you to use it's numbers.


In the long run figuring this out opens more options for MP (server-side mods once the framework is in), and likely would cost less effort than constantly adding table "signatures" - which is essentially what CRCing them is.

And... whether SCP does do gameplay changes down the line, it's up to the servers to choose what they want.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: taylor on March 27, 2006, 08:05:21 AM
Quote from: Keleus
How about a major change - server side weapon/ship/etc stats that override tables? And only the stats that matter to MP? That way SCP (or you) can do whatever you want to your tables and when you join an MP game the server forces you to use it's numbers.

Then we'd have to always maintain current values for FS2 and all MODs, plus anything in development.  Sorry, but it ain't gonna happen.

It could be a possibility host side, but retail wouldn't support it so that couldn't really be considered a good solution for general anti-cheat protection or even compatibility preservation.

Quote from: Keleus
In the long run figuring this out opens more options for MP (server-side mods once the framework is in), and likely would cost less effort than constantly adding table "signatures" - which is essentially what CRCing them is.

The new PXO, like the old PXO, isn't going to do any CRCing though so that isn't going to be a concern.  Remember that there is really only one "server", that's whoever is running PXO, everything else is host or client and that's where the actual games are.

Host-side mods would by no means be an effortless task.  Transferring mod data and keeping all of it build and cross-platform compatible is a major undertaking.  Perhaps it's an idea that can be seriously entertained in the (distant) future, but it's not even a remote consideration at this point.

Quote from: Keleus
And... whether SCP does do gameplay changes down the line, it's up to the servers to choose what they want.

SCP isn't going to make gameplay changes which affect normal play (unless it's by mistake).  Even if something is running on the host/client that may present a compatiblity problem the code should adapt to the changes and keep incompatible players out.  This will be mod based, mission based, and feature based compatibility detection and it will be done on both the host and client sides.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 27, 2006, 09:19:17 AM
Taylor, that's great news. How long do you guesstimate it'll take to code the changes?
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: taylor on March 27, 2006, 10:07:20 AM
Quote from: Road_Dancer
Taylor, that's great news. How long do you guesstimate it'll take to code the changes?

I've been coding on it all since November.  But I work on a LOT of things at the same time so it's almost impossible for me to guess when any one thing will get done.

I've been helping mods, working on the OS X version, and bug fixing far too much to do much with any of the new code of the past couple of months though.  I'm taking a couple-month break starting this week to basically focus on all of the other code projects and not do any bug fixing or helping out mods.  I still have to finish the PXO rewrite, upgrade it all to support new SCP features, finish all of the new SCP features (I'm basically the only one working on network stuff now), then test it all for compatibility with retail.  After that I'll start folding all of the new compatibility and auto-detection features in and have much better mod support as well.

Before I get to that point though, I have to:
- finish the new cross-platform launcher for SCP
- finish the new pilot file code
- put the final touches on the new input code
- complete the new multi-api sound code
- finish conversion of OGL code to runtime lib loading
- add final env mapping support to OGL
- work on new SCP installer some more

After that I'll get to PXO and all of the nasty network code again. :)
If I can focus on it then it shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks to bang out the new code changes.  Perhaps a month of testing after that, then it will get folded back into public CVS.  I'll want to make sure that Tom is squared away on all of the changes too so that it will be easier for him to maintain his build.  I also have to integrate PXO support back into the icculus.org versions of FS1 and FS2.

Oh, and I have Tom's changes too.  I made a diff of those so I still need time to wade through those and pick out everything that SCP should also support.  I've gone through it quickly already though and there is nothing really strange in there so it should only take a day or two to figure out what I want to do with that stuff.

Oh, and I have a business to run too so that will take up a lot of my time as well.

Basically, if you can't tell already, I don't have a friggin clue when the new code is going to be done. :biggrin1:
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Road_Dancer on March 27, 2006, 10:31:19 AM
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..............
Whoa...
Dude, I'm seriously impressed! I don't know many people that would take all that on, even if they're getting paid, let alone as a volunteer!
I think that the SCP is one of the most impressive collaborative projects I've come across in 'teh InterWebtron', and you guys deserve some serious kudos.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: karajorma on March 27, 2006, 10:36:59 AM
Taylor's a real machine especially when it comes to bug fixing. :)
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: Keleus on March 27, 2006, 06:18:34 PM
Wow, taylor. That's quite an undertaking. I would help If I had any programming knowledge, but maybe you should consider tossing the idea of helping around to people you know?

BTW, i did mean host-side not server side. (I was thinking of it in terms of client, server, listing server)
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: taylor on March 27, 2006, 07:22:07 PM
Quote from: Keleus
BTW, i did mean host-side not server side. (I was thinking of it in terms of client, server, listing server)

I figured that's what you meant.  I used the same terminology not too long ago, but it got too confusing so I went with "client, host, server", which better corresponds with Volition terminology anyway.
Title: Hacked Tables....
Post by: [dw]-hunter on March 27, 2006, 07:34:27 PM
Quote from: taylor
Oh, and I have Tom's changes too.  I made a diff of those so I still need time to wade through those and pick out everything that SCP should also support.  I've gone through it quickly already though and there is nothing really strange in there so it should only take a day or two to figure out what I want to do with that stuff.


This is good news :) Hopefully the dudes at HLP will update the build identifier when they come out with a new build so it tells us what build their using rather the the build that included the pxo code was released. It would help letting us know what missions would be compatible with the oldest build in the game, because... they keep comming out with more and more sexps. And I recommend to all those who plan on making multiplayer-SCP-missions to write down in the mission description what build you made the mission in to confirm compatibility.

Tom's features is one of the reasons I like his build (along with stabibility and other things) so since we are going to see his features in SCP builds you will find me on it more often. :)